maestro: beyond basic strategy?

[maestro]

I am fairly new to blackjack-just one year at the game. I mastered basic strategy through study and thousands of hands with online strategy trainers. I am considering learning to count-something simple like the Ace-five or the Speed Count. Is learning to count even worthwhile nowadays-in the era of 6 to 5 blackjacks payoffs,poor penetration, and continuous shuffling machines? Based on the postings I've read here, the expert players who visit this site would be able to offer useful suggestions. Thank you in advance.

[Parker]

While overall conditions have indeed deteriorated in the past few years, there are still plenty of playable games to be found, although it may take a little looking. Depending on your geographic location, some travel may be required.

Forget Ace-five or Speed count. With about the same effort you can learn a real counting system such as KO (Knock-out) or Fred Renzey's KISS count.

Books on both are available in our online catalog.

[Aruuba]

Is learning to count even worthwhile nowadays-in the era f 6 to 5 blackjacks payoffs,poor penetration, and continuous
> shuffling machines?

I'm certainly no expert but along with counting comes betting if you want to make counting profitable. Which requires a bankroll to bet with that is subjected to a risk.

Just a caution that it's possible you might end up a little disappointed of how much money you may need to possibly make not really that much while at the same time not subjecting your bankroll to a pretty high risk.

But, anyway, absolutely learn to count and, at worst, after you learn index departures based on the count, at least you have reduced the original house edge a little even if you choose to flat-bet and minmize losses while building a bankroll.

And do like Parker said - if you're gonna learn a counting system learn a worthwhile one. It's all basically only adding and subtracting 1 anyway which even my wife can do even if she does need to ask the dealer what her total is if it's at least 3 cards and has an Ace in it

[maestro]

> While overall conditions have indeed deteriorated in
> the past few years, there are still plenty of playable
> games to be found, although it may take a little
> looking. Depending on your geographic location, some
> travel may be required.

> Forget Ace-five or Speed count. With about the same
> effort you can learn a real counting system such as KO
> (Knock-out) or Fred Renzey's KISS count.

> Books on both are available in our online catalog.

Thank you for the ideas. Of the two, I prefer Renzey. I've read many of his articles on poker and blackjack and I've glanced at his Blackjack Bluebook. Would I need software to master his Kiss Count? If so, which one would you suggest?

[Parker]

> Thank you for the ideas. Of the two, I prefer Renzey.
> I've read many of his articles on poker and blackjack
> and I've glanced at his Blackjack Bluebook. Would I
> need software to master his Kiss Count? If so, which
> one would you suggest?

You don't *need* software to master any counting system. People did it for years simply by counting down decks at the kitchen table.

However, a good practice program will make learning a lot easier, as well as providing useful feedback as to whether or not you're doing it right. It can even help prepare you for some of the bankroll swings you will encounter in actual play.

Casino Verite is so far superior to anything else on the market that it isn't really even worth discussing. Its myriad features and realistic 3D graphics allow it to simulate just about every aspect of actual casino play, short of hustling you for tokes.

It was developed by Norm Wattenberger, a frequent contributor to these pages.

It is available (of course) in our online catalog.

[TheApprentice]

> Just a caution that it's possible you might end up a
> little disappointed of how much money you may need to
> possibly make not really that much while at the same
> time not subjecting your bankroll to a pretty high
> risk.

Aruuba, et al:

How could one go about figuring out just how much is needed to make even 'not really that much'?
Is there a calculator available somewhere?
Thanks

[Dog Hand]

[Aruuba`]

> How could one go about figuring out just how much is
> needed to make even 'not really that much'?
> Is there a calculator available somewhere?
> Thanks

Well, there are lots of calculators around. The best one would be, like Dog said, is buy a sim like CVCX. Check out qfit.com and see all the calculators. Look over Don's CH10 to get an idea of risk and spread and roll for various games. If you can understand that, your half-way home to understanding the data any sim will give you. There are even free sims available as at least a starting point.

Your question is so broad that it's difficult to answer. Of course "not really that much" isn't very specific either!

But, broadly speaking, it's not just how much you will win, it's also risk involved. And both change depending on a lot of things, like counting system, use of indexes, rules of the game, penetration level of the game, whether you play-all and spread 1-8 or 1-24, whether you backcount and when you enter and leave and what you spread and when, whether you spread to multiple hands or not, use of cover or not, not to mention how much time you have to devote to a game and whether you care about hourly win, etc.

Like, maybe, say for example, in a given game, played in a certain way with a counting system, maybe with indexes or not, you are supposed to win $1 per hand betting say $25-$500, a 1-20 spread. Sounds good right? The more you play, the more you win, right? Whether your total bankroll is $200 or $200,000 you still are expected to make that same $1 per hand. But I think anyone can intuitively see that with an 8 unit roll, playing for any length of time at all, one will almost always go bust but, with an 800 unit roll, not go bust nearly as often, all the while making the same expected $1 per hand.

Just maybe keep that risk vs reward stuff in the back of your mind going forward. Knowing and understanding both may just give you the keys to the kingdom.

If you get more specific with maybe whatever it is you may have in mind, maybe, if I can't, others here can shed some light on the plan you have in mind. Maybe even just learning all that is needed to even get an answer to your question, all the questions a sim will ask you anyway, would be a useful exercise.