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Thread: 10-liner: Single deck three-spot

  1. #1
    10-liner
    Guest

    10-liner: Single deck three-spot

    A single deck game, with shuffle after each hand, can have about 0.3% shaved off the house edge (or added to the player edge) by following composition-dependent basic strategy (eg. 7/5 v. 3 = stand, not hit.).

    With three spots available for play, with shuffle point extended to after those three spots have all been played out, how much would perfect composition-dependent strategy then add to the return? Clearly, it must be more than for just one hand, since three cards on the table now becomes seven.

    Are there any tools available, either online or software available for purchase, that can generate correct strategy?

  2. #2
    Dog Hand
    Guest

    Dog Hand: Let me get this straight...

    A single deck game, with shuffle after each hand, can have about 0.3% shaved off the house edge (or added to the player edge) by following composition-dependent basic strategy (eg. 7/5 v. 3 = stand, not hit.).

    With three spots available for play, with shuffle point extended to after those three spots have all been played out, how much would perfect composition-dependent strategy then add to the return? Clearly, it must be more than for just one hand, since three cards on the table now becomes seven.

    Are there any tools available, either online or software available for purchase, that can generate correct strategy?


    10-liner,

    You want a composition-dependent strategy (CDS) to tell you how to play all three hands? So if the first hand requires four cards, and the second consumes three, you want to memorize every possible combination of how these first seven cards impact the correct play for the third hand?

    You don't seem to understand the limitations of CDS: CDS applies to only one hand, so it ignores any set of player's cards that totals more than 21.

    I believe that your best bet is simply to use card counting, which approximates the impact of all cards seen on the play of your hand. Thus, if the dealer is showing a 3, your first two hands are K-K and Q-Q, and your third hand is 7-5, card counting will tell you to hit this hand.

    Hope this helps!

    Dog Hand

  3. #3
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Single deck three-spot

    > A single deck game, with shuffle after each hand, can
    > have about 0.3% shaved off the house edge (or added to
    > the player edge) by following composition-dependent
    > basic strategy (eg. 7/5 v. 3 = stand, not hit.).

    That isn't close to being true. You meant to write 0.03%, which is one-tenth of the value you quoted.

    Don

  4. #4
    10-liner
    Guest

    10-liner: Re: Single deck three-spot

    Yup, 0.03%. -0.22% becomes -0.19%, etc.

    Dog Hand said:

    You want a composition-dependent strategy (CDS) to tell you how to play all three hands? So if the first hand requires four cards, and the second consumes three, you want to memorize every possible combination of how these first seven cards impact the correct play for the third hand?

    You don't seem to understand the limitations of CDS: CDS applies to only one hand, so it ignores any set of player's cards that totals more than 21.

    I believe that your best bet is simply to use card counting, which approximates the impact of all cards seen on the play of your hand. Thus, if the dealer is showing a 3, your first two hands are K-K and Q-Q, and your third hand is 7-5, card counting will tell you to hit this hand.


    OK, example: there are three hands on the table:

    1) 9/6

    2) 3/7

    3) 5/5

    Dealer is 10 up.

    9/6 would be a hit - however, the two 5s and the 3 would affect this play to make it a stand.

    Let's say that, moving to hand 2, I pull a 6 on my 3/7. CDS would say to hit this 16 - it's one of the exceptions to general stand on three card 16. However, again, those addition 5s most likely make this now a stand.

    With me? I'm looking to be able to input ALL the available values, click "go" and generate the correct play; here, I would input h1: 9/6; h2: 3/7; h3: 5/5 - plus a 10 for the dealer. As each hand receives more cards, those cards are also input to generate the next play, and so on.

    Is there not counting software that can achieve this? One could do a manual count with one of the single deck optimised strategies, but this would be terribly time consuming, and unnecessary if it can be achieved with software.

  5. #5
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Single deck three-spot

    > Is there not counting software that can achieve this?

    You can use the EORs in the BJA3 Appendix D to answer all questions of this type, quite precisely, but I don't understand what you could possibly hope to do at a live table. You don't propose to be able to do this stuff in your head, do you?

    Why wouldn't you just use the count to make the "right" play?

    > One could do a manual count with one of the single
    > deck optimised strategies, but this would be terribly
    > time consuming, and unnecessary if it can be achieved
    > with software.

    See above. There used to be a Web site that permitted you to remove precise cards and get e.v.s for your hand, but it is currently down for renovation.

    Don

  6. #6
    10-liner
    Guest

    10-liner: Re: Single deck three-spot

    Ah, should have clarified. This is an online game I'm referring to.

    Cindy Liu's "Gambling Tools" site used to have a blackjack application for this. Don't know if it's the one you're referring to, but it's been gone a long time now.


  7. #7
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Single deck three-spot

    > Ah, should have clarified. This is an online game I'm
    > referring to.

    Yes, that might have helped! :-)

    > Cindy Liu's "Gambling Tools" site used to
    > have a blackjack application for this. Don't know if
    > it's the one you're referring to, but it's been gone a
    > long time now.

    Yes, it is. It was my understanding that she might resurrect it.

    Don

  8. #8
    Dog Hand
    Guest

    Dog Hand: Re: Single deck three-spot


    10-liner,

    Try the site linked below, which contains a demo for a composition-dependent combinatorial analyzer (cdca). The demo works only for single-deck games, but fortunately that's what you need.

    I've had trouble running the program under Vista, but perhaps you'll have better luck with it.

    Dog Hand



  9. #9
    kc
    Guest

    kc: Re: Single deck three-spot


    > Ah, should have clarified. This is an online game I'm
    > referring to.

    > Cindy Liu's "Gambling Tools" site used to
    > have a blackjack application for this. Don't know if
    > it's the one you're referring to, but it's been gone a
    > long time now.

    My demo program, which I listed a little while back in the Computing for Counters forum, can do what you want for single deck. You could use it for a single deck online game to always get the best play as follows:
     
    1. Enter rules
    2. Enter your hand
    3. Click Compute - you will get EVs and best strategy for all up cards. You can also choose
    to play all hands using full shoe CD "basic" strategy if you want, but I'm sure you would
    want the optimal play. "Use best strategy" is the default setting.
    4. Specfically remove the cards used in the hand
    For example if your hand was 10-2-5 and dealer's up card is 4 and hole card is 3 and
    he draws a 10, you would remove 2 tens, 1 two, 1 three, 1 four and 1 five in the
    "SHOE" section of the program
    5. Click "Reset" to remove player's cards from the display
    6. Repeat
    7. When a reshuffle occurs, use the "Shoe / Reset to full shoe" menu item to set the shoe.
    back to a full deck.

    .
    The download is free. Link to download is below. I was hoping to get some feedback on the program so I can gauge what else I might do.

    kc



  10. #10
    kc
    Guest

    kc: Re: Single deck three-spot

    > 10-liner,

    > Try the site linked below, which contains a demo for a
    > composition-dependent combinatorial analyzer (cdca).
    > The demo works only for single-deck games, but
    > fortunately that's what you need.

    > I've had trouble running the program under Vista, but
    > perhaps you'll have better luck with it.

    > Dog Hand

    What happens in Vista?

    kc

  11. #11
    10-liner
    Guest

    10-liner: Re: Single deck three-spot

    Thanks, KC. Unfortunately, entering the dealer upcard produces a "problem encountered" error message, and it closes itself. I'm using XP.

  12. #12
    kc
    Guest

    kc: Re: Single deck three-spot

    > Thanks, KC. Unfortunately, entering the dealer upcard
    > produces a "problem encountered" error
    > message, and it closes itself. I'm using XP.

    The program has been tested on 2 XP machines without a problem. Did you run Register.exe and get the message "DllServer in msflxgrd.ocx succeeded?" That could be a source of the problem. If that isn't it, it's probably because a Microsoft .dll is not accessible to the program on your system. An installation program would take care of any problems like this, but I haven't made one as yet.

    The other most likely candidate is because Riched32.dll is inaccessible on your system. Do a search for it. If it is not in your Windows\System or Windows\System32 folder, look in the Win98 folder of the download. There's a copy of Riched32.dll there. Copy it to the Windows\System or \System32 folder. This may be the likliest source because from what you reported, the error occurs in selecting an up card.

    btw, if the program is functioning properly, selecting an up card just displays the dealer's probabilities for a given shoe state.

    Let me know if this works. If you want you can email me. There is an email address in the download.

    Like I said, the program works on other XP systems, so it should work on yours as well.

    Thanks,
    kc

  13. #13
    kc
    Guest

    kc: Dealer probabilities are initially inaccessible

    I just discovered a problem that I will need to fix. If you try to select an up card before doing anything else, an error occurs and the program will not run because it is trying to reference something that doesn't yet exist. As the program now exists, you must click "Compute" at least once before you can access the dealer's probabilities for any up card or overall. Once that is done, selecting a value from the drop down list will not cause the program to halt.

    Clicking "Compute" with no player cards entered computes a pre-deal overall EV. Clicking "Compute" with 1 player card entered computes an overall EV given that player knows his first card. Clicking "Compute" with 2 or more player cards entered computes the applicable EVs and strategy for that player hand.

    The dealer's probabilities are just there for reference. The information needed to play a hand for all up cards will be in the "Player's Expected Values" section. There is no need to specify a specific up card to get this information.

    Sorry for the error, and thanks again for your input. If you have any questions or problems let me know.

    kc

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