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Thread: Anna: Early or Late surrender?

  1. #1
    Anna
    Guest

    Anna: Early or Late surrender?

    I was trying to calculate the correct Basic Strategy for my game at Blackjackinfo.com and I'm stuck on early vs late surrender.
    I'm playing in Europe, so ENHC (no hole card).

    After the dealer has finished dealing the cards and before the playing begins, the dealer asks if you want to surrender.

    Now, there are 2 scenarios, depending on the casino.
    1st type allows surrender vs 2-10 but not vs Ace
    2nd type allows surrender against EVERY dealer card.

    Now, do I pick either Early or Late Surrender? It seems to be a mixture of both... quite confusing.

    I assume surrender vs Ace is quite good for the player?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Re: Early or Late surrender?

    The problem is that blackjackinfo.com and many other references are based on the American style of blackjack in which the dealer deals him/herself a hole card. If the dealer's upcard is a ten or an ace, the dealer will check for blackjack before the players play out their hands.

    If you are allowed to surrender before the dealer checks for blackjack, it is early surrender. If you can only surrender after the dealer has verified that he/she does not have blackjack, then it is late surrender.

    The European game is a little different since no hole card is dealt. If you may surrender against any upcard (including ace), then this is again early surrender.

    If you may surrender against 2-10 only, but you still get to keep your surrender payout (half your original bet) if the dealer subsequently gets a blackjack (with a 10 upcard, of course), then this is a third type of surrender known as ES10. It is better than late surrender, but not nearly as good as early surrender.

    There are a few European games in which the dealer leaves the surrender payout in the betting square until the hand is completed, and if the dealer gets a blackjack, the player loses the entire original bet. This is, of course, late surrender.

    Early surrender is indeed very good for the player, and can turn a game with otherwise average rules into a game with a positive off-the-top expectation for the basic strategy player.

    If blackjackinfo.com or other reference does not offer the ES10 option, using late surrender to calculate the edge will get a result closer to the actual edge than using early surrender.

  3. #3
    Francis Salmon
    Guest

    Francis Salmon: Re: Early or Late surrender?

    I don't think Late surrender exists in Europe since bets are settled immediately after you choose to surrender.
    The usual thing (if surrender is offered at all) is ES10 which is worth 0.25% compared to 0.08% for Late surrender.
    At some very rare places you get unrestricted Early surrender which is worth 0.65%.

    Francis Salmon

  4. #4
    MGP
    Guest

    MGP: Re: Early or Late surrender?

    > I was trying to calculate the correct Basic Strategy
    > for my game at Blackjackinfo.com and I'm stuck on
    > early vs late surrender.
    > I'm playing in Europe, so ENHC (no hole card).

    > After the dealer has finished dealing the cards and
    > before the playing begins, the dealer asks if you want
    > to surrender.

    > Now, there are 2 scenarios, depending on the casino.
    > 1st type allows surrender vs 2-10 but not vs Ace
    > 2nd type allows surrender against EVERY dealer card.

    I can get you the EV for both scenarios, but 2 things first:

    1) Please post ALL the rules
    2) When you decide to surrender, do you get your money back right away or does the dealer keep it if he has BJ?

    Thanks,
    MGP

  5. #5
    Anna
    Guest

    Anna: Re: Early or Late surrender?

    Hi MGP,

    When you surrender, you get back half your money straight away.

    Other infos: 6D, DAS, DA2, ENHC. Split Aces get only one card.

    > I can get you the EV for both scenarios, but 2 things
    > first:

    > 1) Please post ALL the rules
    > 2) When you decide to surrender, do you get your money
    > back right away or does the dealer keep it if he has
    > BJ?

    > Thanks,
    > MGP

  6. #6
    Anna
    Guest

    Anna: Re: Early or Late surrender?

    You get back half your money straight away, so that would be Early Surrender. Thanks.

  7. #7
    Anna
    Guest

    Anna: Re: Early or Late surrender?

    Forgot this: it's also S17

  8. #8
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Early or Late surrender?

    > I don't think Late surrender exists in Europe since
    > bets are settled immediately after you choose to
    > surrender.
    > The usual thing (if surrender is offered at all) is
    > ES10 which is worth 0.25% compared to 0.08% for Late
    > surrender.
    > At some very rare places you get unrestricted Early
    > surrender which is worth 0.65%.

    Note that any form of surrender is worth much, more more to the counter than to the BS player.

    Don

  9. #9
    MGP
    Guest

    MGP: 6D S17 ENHC DAS DOA ES10/ES

    > Hi MGP,

    > When you surrender, you get back half your money
    > straight away.

    > Other infos: 6D, DAS, DA2, ENHC. Split Aces get only
    > one card.

    Ok - for the above rules S17 we have the following 2 EVs:

    ES (i.e. surrender all upcards): 0.151977099333421%
    ES10 (i.e. surrender 2-10, no surrender Ace): -0.238773114925468%

    Both are using Total Dependent strategies. If you need to strategies posted let me know.

    Sincerely,
    MGP

  10. #10
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: 6D S17 ENHC DAS DOA ES10/ES

    > Ok - for the above rules S17 we have the following 2
    > EVs:

    > ES (i.e. surrender all upcards): 0.151977099333421%

    Can you think of why your number would be 0.036 more favorable than what I get from Cac's Appendix C values? Something seems wrong with your value, above.

    Don

  11. #11
    MGP
    Guest

    MGP: Re: 6D S17 ENHC DAS DOA ES10/ES

    > Can you think of why your number would be 0.036 more
    > favorable than what I get from Cac's Appendix C
    > values? Something seems wrong with your value, above.

    > Don

    If it were anyone else's numbers I'd ask why you're assuming my numbers are wrong . But given that I've made plenty of mistakes in the past and that Cacarulo is always right, I'll forgive you this time, LOL.

    I actually don't have the book with me at work - I know I should, but I'll check when I get home. I suspect it may have to do with the rule interactions, but I also failed to memorize all the appendices so unless you post more details it'll have to wait. The details would help though if you have them.

    Thanks,
    MGP

  12. #12
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: 6D S17 ENHC DAS DOA ES10/ES

    > If it were anyone else's numbers I'd ask why you're
    > assuming my numbers are wrong . But given that I've
    > made plenty of mistakes in the past and that Cacarulo
    > is always right, I'll forgive you this time, LOL.

    > I actually don't have the book with me at work - I
    > know I should, but I'll check when I get home. I
    > suspect it may have to do with the rule interactions,
    > but I also failed to memorize all the appendices so
    > unless you post more details it'll have to wait. The
    > details would help though if you have them.

    6D, S17: -0.546
    DAS: +0.142
    ENHC: -0.109
    ES: 0.629

    Total player edge: 0.116

    Ironically, if your number were LOWER than mine, I could understand rule interaction (more in a minute). But, yours in higher than mine, and I don't see where it could possibly come from.

    I think the 0.142 for DAS is probably too high in this case. With ENHC, we don't split 8s vs. 10, which means we don't get to double any subsequent 11s that might form. The result is probably negligible, but it can only hurt, not help, the overall figure.

    Don

  13. #13
    MGP
    Guest

    MGP: Re: 6D S17 ENHC DAS DOA ES10/ES

    Hi Don,

    Are the baseline rules 6D S17 DOA NDAS NS OBO SPL3?

    I'm wondering if it's SPL1 since that's about a 0.03% difference...

    I'm not sure why the 6D S17 values would be so far off then (-0.520 vs -0.546). Adding rules one at a time in the order you presented plus the SPL difference I get the following:

    6D S17 DOA NDAS NS OBO SPL1: -0.554%
    SPL3: -0.520% (Diff 0.034%)
    DAS: -0.378% (Diff 0.142%)
    ENHC: -0.492% (Diff -0.114%)
    ES: 0.152% (Diff 0.644%)

    Keep in mind that my TD values are NOT keeping the strategy identical - they are calculating the best strategy for the given rules. That could also be another difference. I also didn't compare moving the order of the rules around to see if that made any difference to the "Diff" values except for one below:

    6D OBO NDAS to 6D OBO DAS: Diff 0.142%
    6D ENHC NDAS to 6D ENHC DAS: Diff 0.140%

    So the order matters a little bit, but the net with my calcs is the same taken all together. If the numbers are taken all from baseline though, then interactions will cause a difference as above.

    > 6D, S17: -0.546
    > DAS: +0.142
    > ENHC: -0.109
    > ES: 0.629

    > Total player edge: 0.116

    > Ironically, if your number were LOWER than mine, I
    > could understand rule interaction (more in a minute).
    > But, yours in higher than mine, and I don't see where
    > it could possibly come from.

    > I think the 0.142 for DAS is probably too high in this
    > case. With ENHC, we don't split 8s vs. 10, which means
    > we don't get to double any subsequent 11s that might
    > form. The result is probably negligible, but it can
    > only hurt, not help, the overall figure.

    Right - see above.

    > Don

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