Christian: Counting speed

[Christian]

G'day everybody,

As a beginner I have spent the past three months learning the KO Preferred count. I have that down pat. I've been using CVBJ full table drills to practice the count.I seem to have plateaued out at 5.5 to 6 rounds per minute with mostly 100% accuracy...occasionaly make one mistake in a round. Just wondering what speed others achieve and what is considered to be fast enough?
I am going to do a bit of back counting at the casino,so I guess that will be a good guide as to whether I am fast enough.
I've read Knock out Blackjack and Stanford's Professional Blackjack and am currently reading Don's Blackjack Attack.
Also read every post on this Forum and have learnt heaps.
Looking forward to reply's.

Christian

[Norm Wattenberger]

I've always wanted to obtain an agreement on what should be a benchmark for acceptable speed. Never been able to get an agreement. Perhaps this is OK. It really comes down to what you can manage while keeping up your 'act.' And that will vary by person and circumstance. The point of the drills is to force you into a speed that you will never experience in a casino. If you still feel uncomfortable in a casino with your performance, stop playing and practice more. And, as many have suggested, watch TV or talk on the phone while practicing. I do not provide such built-in distractions because they cannot compare to human interaction. Humans are not predicatable and therefore the best interaction.

The best test in CVBJ is the two-table back-counting drill. If you can pass that, you are dangerous

[gorilla player]

> G'day everybody,

> As a beginner I have spent the past three
> months learning the KO Preferred count. I
> have that down pat. I've been using CVBJ
> full table drills to practice the count.I
> seem to have plateaued out at 5.5 to 6
> rounds per minute with mostly 100%
> accuracy...occasionaly make one mistake in a
> round. Just wondering what speed others
> achieve and what is considered to be fast
> enough?

First, more specifics. I do the same drill. I run full-table, starting hands, 6 decks, which makes it a bit harder because the running count can be extreme. I run it at 5 seconds per shot, but give myself another 5 seconds (never use it) to find the right button. I often find it taking as long to find -8 as it did to count all the hands. I typically go between 9-10 per minute, although if I _really_ bear down I can go beyond that quite easily, but it becomes tiring.

I don't really like the "full hand" approach as I never count like that in a game.

Another idea. I have a CVTEST customized to do the following:

1. flashcard, normal two-card hands, no indices.
2. flashcard, normal two-card hands, with fab4/I18 indices.
3. counting drill, two cards at a time, running count for 6 decks dealt to bottom.
4. remaining decks for 6 decks, 1 deck resolution.
5. counting drill, two cards at a time, true count, for 6 decks dealt to bottom.
5. full table running count
6. full table true count

I usually screw up one along the way somewhere, by hitting the wrong count, the wrong strategy play, or the wrong remaining deck estimate. I run this custom test once or twice a day, usually when I am fooling around late at night, and out of the last 5 runs, 3 were perfect, two were 99%.

Now to your other question. Hitting 5-6 per minute is not bad. I am not sitting in front of CV right now, but I believe it has at least 5 or 6 players + dealer hand. 5 per minute means you are counting 30-35 hands per minute, or 1800+ per hour. A dealer going that fast would dislocate his wrist and elbow and melt the shoe. Believe me, 5 per minute is plenty fast when you think about it.

I run the 2-card counting drills at 1 sec exactly per pair. I can go a bit faster, but if I screw up, I can't pause to refigure the count. For a reference I can count down a deck in about 15 seconds, two at a time... I can do that quite a bit faster, but at 15 seconds I don't make any errors, period. Going faster I will often end up at zero with a 10 or small card removed.

> I am going to do a bit of back counting at
> the casino,so I guess that will be a good
> guide as to whether I am fast enough.

Another good thing with CV is to set the options to play like a pitched game where the first two cards are dealt face down. That makes you pay more attention, as when a player takes a hit, and busts, CV will turn over his cards for a split second and then drag them to the discard. If you don't pay attention you will miss them. When you can do that with no problems, face-up games seem like child's play...

> I've read Knock out Blackjack and Stanford's
> Professional Blackjack and am currently
> reading Don's Blackjack Attack.
> Also read every post on this Forum and have
> learnt heaps.
> Looking forward to reply's.

> Christian

It would be an interesting side-topic to compare notes with others to see how speeds compare. Only thing that is necessary is to specify _exactly_ how we run each test, since CV has lots of options, with sliders that can speed up or slow things down, you can have the cards displayed only horizontally (easier to count) or mixed (turned every which way which makes it a bit harder at first) and so forth.

If several are interested, we could make a standardized test and perhaps Norm can tell us if there is an easy way to share the file that contains the customized test suite so that everyone could run the same tests.

Obviously for those that like the competition. I assume most BJ players fit that mold. My "competitiveness" often pisses my wife off, when I try to wrap a package faster than her, or clean something faster, etc. Just comes naturally to me.

[gorilla player]

> I've always wanted to obtain an agreement on
> what should be a benchmark for acceptable
> speed. Never been able to get an agreement.
> Perhaps this is OK. It really comes down to
> what you can manage while keeping up your
> 'act.' And that will vary by person and
> circumstance. The point of the drills is to
> force you into a speed that you will never
> experience in a casino. If you still feel
> uncomfortable in a casino with your
> performance, stop playing and practice more.
> And, as many have suggested, watch TV or
> talk on the phone while practicing. I do not
> provide such built-in distractions because
> they cannot compare to human interaction.
> Humans are not predicatable and therefore
> the best interaction.

> The best test in CVBJ is the two-table
> back-counting drill. If you can pass that,
> you are dangerous

I can do it at a reasonable speed. But I need a roll of duct tape to wrap around my head to keep it from exploding. Wife was watching me play with that last night, asked me "What in god's name are you doing staring so intently at your screen with your eyes bugged out?" When I told her, she gave me her usual "stupid son of a ..." comment while grinning...

I had originally thought you were going to show two tables at the same time, rather than alternating, which (to me) makes it a bit easier... I run it at 5.5 seconds per table for two and almost always click the count before the cards disappear. However I don't talk to anyone or watch TV while doing this. BTW that blue background is ugly.

I play BJ on green, although I have heard some foreign casinos only have blue. My brother was buying a pool table two weeks ago, wanted me to go with him and his wife (my wife too). We picked out a really good 1" slate 9' table, my brother likes dark wood, him and his wife agreed on that, then they got to the playing surface. Pool tables are green. His wife wanted blue. I wanted to throw up. Fortunately, he agreed that blue (this was a sort of tweed blue, not a solid blue like the CV two-table drill, and to me it looked _really_ ugly. green baize for life...

[Norm Wattenberger]

My point in the creation of CVTest originally was to create standardized tests. I don?t mean to insult anyone; but most people that declare that they are ?card counters? are not very good at their craft. And if you are not very good at it; your odds of winning in the long run are near zero. (Simple statistics.) Let me stress this ? undisciplined gamblers will lose. You may note that the dozens of pages of my websites avoid the word ?win.? One of my heroes in this field is Arnold Snyder. Partly because he has always pushed the downside. He tells you that ?you will not win.? And this is true if you ignore the risk of ruin or are a gambler at heart. It should be made clear that a ?gambler? won?t win.

Having said all this; I am always interested in comments on standardization of testing. With appropriate warnings; I would like to promulgate a set of standards

Serious Blackjack Software

[Norm Wattenberger]

I've gone through many during the life of CVBJ. The current main tables are actual pieced together photographs of tables, shoes, trays and cards. Hundreds of digital photos are dynamically combined to show current situations. I have actually recieved complaints from some people that prefer the cartoonish graphics of online casinos. They are right that they are more attractive. Just not realistic. The term V?rit? says it all.

[gorilla player]

> My point in the creation of CVTest
> originally was to create standardized tests.
> I don?t mean to insult anyone; but most
> people that declare that they are ?card
> counters? are not very good at their craft.
> And if you are not very good at it; your
> odds of winning in the long run are near
> zero. (Simple statistics.) Let me stress
> this ? undisciplined gamblers will lose. You
> may note that the dozens of pages of my
> websites avoid the word ?win.? One of my
> heroes in this field is Arnold Snyder.
> Partly because he has always pushed the
> downside. He tells you that ?you will not
> win.? And this is true if you ignore the
> risk of ruin or are a gambler at heart. It
> should be made clear that a ?gambler? won?t
> win.

> Having said all this; I am always interested
> in comments on standardization of testing.
> With appropriate warnings; I would like to
> promulgate a set of standards

Very first problem that comes to mind is not everyone uses Hi-Lo. So my "custom test" with true count will be foreign to a KO'er. Or someone that wants an ace-side-count is speeking Swahili to me.

Your comment about winning is spot-on. I'm reminded of an old movie, where the hero is sitting in the middle of the road, bloodied, wet, tired, heroine comes up and asks "what happened, lose a fight?" He responds "No, I just beat the hell out of his fists using my face..." Sometimes BJ seems like that. Really can win, but it is not a walk in the park, it's a lot of work, practice, and above all discipline. I totally agree that gamblers need not apply.

Found out one of my students is a pretty good counter (not a 21-year old, someone a bit older). Went to play with him at an indian casino a few months back. First thought was to play at the same table to see how he did, since he was using the same counting system I used. His bets were unpredictable, but more importantly, he did odd things about hiting/standing/doubling that I _knew_ the indices were not suggesting. Turns out he was one of "those" that try to mix counting and gambling. It's just like potassium and water. Mix 'em and something bad happens _every_ time....

I think part of the problem is that new counters really don't understand how thin the actual advantage is. Start screwing up BS plays, or even bogus indices plays, and even worse, betting wrong, and that advantage can disappear in a heartbeat, leaving lots of pain behind.

I really got a kick out of reading the gamemaster's stuff one afternoon. He really hits a lot of this right on the head...

[gorilla player]

> I've gone through many during the life of
> CVBJ. The current main tables are actual
> pieced together photographs of tables,
> shoes, trays and cards. Hundreds of digital
> photos are dynamically combined to show
> current situations. I have actually recieved
> complaints from some people that prefer the
> cartoonish graphics of online casinos. They
> are right that they are more attractive.
> Just not realistic. The term V?rit? says it
> all.

OK. What if I send you a digital photo of a blue table with puke on it?

You could call it the "ultra-real ultra-blue Gorilla player table color.

But seriously, all the features are really great. I've been counting for 4 years with no problems. My speed has probably doubled on the full table drill in a couple of months of daily practice. I don't see the need to go beyond warp-2 of course, but the faster I get, the more natural it becomes. I've noticed that I am beginning to be able to sort of "stare vacantly" at the full-table drill and count without really counting and do this at 5-6 tables per minute easily. If I sit up, pay careful attention, I can double that. So the faster speed is not really needed just for keeping up, no dealer can deal as fast as that table drill at one table every 5 seconds. But if you drive yourself to reach that point, counting at casino speed seems like slow motion, which was my intention. It is so easy to do, I find it hard to stop and not count each card as it is dealt, since it takes no real brainpower to do that. But it is just as fast to count the cards as the seconds are dealt due to cancellation.

I have a good friend that was a former dealer on the coast while going to school. Now works in a computer-related business. We get together from time to time and play BJ (not on the coast where he is known). And every now and then he decides to challenge me to a head-to-head burnout session at the house. IE play just as fast as he can deal, and I can count/play/make decisions and bet. Pisses him off that he is the limiting factor. My goal is to always be waiting on him, his is to have to wait on me. Only time I even get close to him waiting on me is on some of the 6-7-8 card hands where the true count and hand total are close... 3 months ago we had good contests, last weekend I blew him out. We have another head-to-head test planned for next weekend before we hit someplace or another during the Christmas holidays...

Everything you have done is obvious. Which makes it all the better. IE my biggest issue is big negative counts where mentally saying m-seventeen is too slow but unavoidable (unless you have a better idea). I've even tried m-one-eight but that is probably clumsier. But to make it go faster, your "bias the deck" option lets me force myself to deal with that which gives me the most trouble. And you know what? I haven't screwed up on a big - count in CV drills in a long time now, because of the slowness of thinking "M-thirty-two".

That's a good measure of software usefulness. Does it do what is needed.

For CV BJ, I'd say "yes". I obviously can not say it is better than anything else around, if there is an alternative, because CV BJ is all I have tried. But a couple of pros recommended it to me, and after trying the download version, it was obvious it met my needs exactly.

While I might never become a true black-chip player (of course I might, but I'm not thinking that way at present) I do intend to become _very_ dangerous with counting speed/accuracy. I might even be willing to test a 3-4 table backcounting option one day, if I could ever figure out how to do it in a casino. I can hardly back-count two tables because most of the places I visit are crowded enough that I can't see all the cards, a good point for being 6'10" rather than my sub-6' height. I've seen many cases where I couldn't even backcount a single table, being unable to see all of the cards without looking like a side-show dancing around and craning to see everything. Be stupid to get heat before even playing.

[Norm Wattenberger]

95% of 'counters' lose. Kenny Uston made Las Vegas what it is today with his phony bet with Binion and the rest of the hype.

Harsh and exaggerated? Yea. But anyone that says that you can make easy winnings in a casino is IMHO not a good person. It is a job. It is work. It requires discipline beyond that held by gamblers. In my experience, the best card counters never or briefly played BJ before starting their 'careers.' If you want to play for extra income or for the fun of beating the casinos at their own game (as you have indicated) that's grand and more power to you. And it is not all that difficult. If you want this as a career, or you are a gambler - that's another story. I get phone calls every week from people that want to make this a career. I always stress the downside.

norm

[Norm Wattenberger]

Extreme negative counts are generally simply handled. Leave. I know this can be difficult at some locations. Despite my supposed better judgment, I was at Resorts the day Atlantic City opened. After standing in a line that stretched for two blocks, I wasn?t about to give up my seat. But, this is stupid, for lack of a better word. (Well, they did have early surrender and no concept of counting.)

Having said that I always want input. But, my goal is to make it more difficult ? not easier. Ultimately, I want to create CVTest drills that have recognized standards. That won?t prove anything any more than a PHD But, it will present some rough guidelines.

[Battery]

> 95% of 'counters' lose. Kenny Uston made Las
> Vegas what it is today with his phony bet
> with Binion and the rest of the hype.

Norm,

Some of us "rookies" (I'm sure I'm not the only one) are not familiar with the above statement. Would you please take a minute to expand on Uston's phony bet?

Thanks

[gorilla player]

> Extreme negative counts are generally simply
> handled. Leave. I know this can be difficult
> at some locations. Despite my supposed
> better judgment, I was at Resorts the day
> Atlantic City opened. After standing in a
> line that stretched for two blocks, I wasn?t
> about to give up my seat. But, this is
> stupid, for lack of a better word. (Well,
> they did have early surrender and no concept
> of counting.)

> Having said that I always want input. But,
> my goal is to make it more difficult ? not
> easier. Ultimately, I want to create CVTest
> drills that have recognized standards. That
> won?t prove anything any more than a PHD
> But, it will present some rough guidelines.

The one idea that caught my eye from another poster on the CV Drills topic was the answer to the question "what is good enough on say the full-table CVBJ drill to indicate that I'm reasonably ready to try this in a real casino?"

While I can't answer that, if you could come up with a reasonably standard set of drills, with standard settings, and then give a "range" (for example, 6 rounds on the full-table drill per minute is fast enough, 8 per minute is even better. The average serious player can hit 10 per second and a good pro can reach X (No idea what X is)." IE on the drills you have a sort of "speedometer" with what a drag-racer would consider a "red-line" beyond a certain number. Do you consider the redline to be "good" or "very fast"?

On the decks remaining, I trivially do 60+ a minute and that doesn't seem particularly fast. If the outside of the "speedometer" had the first section red (not good enough to think about playing), next section yellow (good enough but even faster would be better) and the upper section green (if you can reach this section you will have no problems with this particular part of counting.)

If you could somehow come up with some standardized "good scores" that would be great. The idea is that most everyone would like to know how they stack up against "known" opposition. While you wouldn't want to include names, of course, some different categories of scores would really be informative...

Now whether that is practical or really doable, is something you have to figure out, that's why you get paid the big bucks.

However, in computer chess programs, a feature many like is some sort of "skill assessment" to let them know not only if they are getting better, but how they compare to various classes of chess players in general...

It is fun to compete against myself and keep pushing the "needle" farther up the scale, but it is also a lot of fun to compete against others, even if indirectly using scores they produced in years past.

[gorilla player]

> 95% of 'counters' lose. Kenny Uston made Las
> Vegas what it is today with his phony bet
> with Binion and the rest of the hype.

> Harsh and exaggerated? Yea. But anyone that
> says that you can make easy winnings in a
> casino is IMHO not a good person. It is a
> job. It is work. It requires discipline
> beyond that held by gamblers. In my
> experience, the best card counters never or
> briefly played BJ before starting their
> 'careers.' If you want to play for extra
> income or for the fun of beating the casinos
> at their own game (as you have indicated)
> that's grand and more power to you. And it
> is not all that difficult. If you want this
> as a career, or you are a gambler - that's
> another story. I get phone calls every week
> from people that want to make this a career.
> I always stress the downside.

> norm

OK. Interesting side-line here. How did _I_ get involved with BJ? Simple answer. My wife got interested in casinos (mainly slots) when MS passed its casino-enabling legislation about 20 years ago or so. While my son and I were at a summer Boy Scout camp for a week (I was asst scoutmaster, he was in the scouts) my wife and daughter took a couple of days off and went to Biloxi (no idea what casinos, too long ago). Wife came back excited, and she did this a couple of other times for fun.

I'm obviously reasonably educated and it just went against my "psyche" to go play games where the final outcome was going to be to lose unless you are _extremely lucky_. So I stayed away and she played maybe once every year or two or three. But she enjoyed it and asked me more than once to go. As we are getting older, and not knowing how many more years we will have to enjoy each other's company (been married since 1968 for reference) I decided "OK, if we are going to do this some, I'm going to see what can be done to turn it from a losing proposition to a winning one. I knew about card counting as a topic, but had never looked at it at all, so I had the same "concept" everyone does, you are counting all the card types, which seemed a bit hard to do.

But once I decided to look into it (I figured if someone was doing it successfully, I ought to be able to do it as I'm not a dummy) and my interest sprang to life. I discovered Hi-Lo, learned it, and we started with a trip to Vegas where she wanted to see a particular show with the BeeGees several years ago. We went out, we saw the BeeGees (at the MGM Grand) and my BJ play suggested that counting was doable. I've been doing it ever since. I will add that as I got into counting, the fun of playing went way up as now there was a "purpose". I've been doing this for about 4 years fairly seriously...

That's "my story" and I'm sticking to it. It is true, however. We've gone to the coast with different parts of our family, and what I do blows their minds. My brother and his wife are true gamblers, but they have noticed that except for rare occasions, I don't come home with large sums of money, but they have also noticed that I almost always seem to come home with something after a week's play. I've seen them hit big wins on slots or 3-card or whatever, but no matter what they _always_ come back with less than they left with...

I suppose the main point for me is that I enjoy doing this, otherwise I'd probably say "hell with it." But so long as I enjoy it, I'll probably continue doing it...

I suspect there are many like me...