pm: Backcounting..

[pm]

Can somebody explain to me how you're actually supposed to backcount (especially in smaller casinos)? I mean can you take me through it, step by step, for a 1 hour session at a casino:

1) You enter the casino.
2) You get a view where you can count a table and watch a band play or something in the meantime.
3) You get a good count and sit down; the count drops below (say) +1 after a few hands and you get up.
4) Now what? Say only 10 minutes have elapsed so far; how do you repeat this process for another 50 minutes without catching any heat, especially if you're playing at relatively high stakes?

Also, what do you do in the case where there's a deteriorated count by the second hand you play?

Help me out, I've never understood this fundamental technique! And all I have at my disposal are shoe games.

[Don Schlesinger]

Read BJA3, Chapter 1. It should answer all your questions. Also read the more mathematically oriented Chapter 13, Part I.

Back-counting in small casinos may not be feasible. You need to blend in with the crowd, and if there is no crowd, it's not so easy to pull off. In this case, sitting out hands and taking strategic bathroom breaks help some.

Don

[pm]

You know, I had read chapter 1 several times, but I somehow skipped 13 altogether.

Is there any way to obtain the ODPs for KO (using WiWo)?

Also, since BJRM doesn't use RA indices to calculate the bet schedule (?), would RA indices actually be of zero use if we got our bet schedule from BJRM?

[Don Schlesinger]

> You know, I had read chapter 1 several
> times, but I somehow skipped 13 altogether.

Not easy sledding.

> Is there any way to obtain the ODPs for KO
> (using WiWo)?

No, afraid not.

> Also, since BJRM doesn't use RA indices to
> calculate the bet schedule (?), would RA
> indices actually be of zero use if we got
> our bet schedule from BJRM?

Well, they'd lower your ROR.

Don

[pm]

I've read and reread chapters 1 & 13, but I'm still not totally understanding how to backcount without looking suspicious.

I don't understand how you're supposed to stand idly in the vicinity of a table and just count. I mean I can understand observing your first shoe upon entering a casino (you're just looking around for a spot), but what happens after you play your first shoe? Ok, you get up, move on, and maybe come up with another excuse to be standing idle (you're talking on your cell or something), so you get to your second shoe. But what about the third, fourth, fifth, sixth shoes? How many excuses could you possibly come up with for standing idly near a table?

And what about when you hit the ODP before sitting at the table? Then it's stand idly for a bit, move near another table, repeat, until you get a playable shoe. How do you do this in an innocuous fashion?

I'm aware that wonging is a standard multi-deck approach, so what are all these excuses people are using to stand around, counting? I saw the chapter 1 example of watching the craps and BJ action simultaneously, but I'm gueesing that's not a standard, repeatable excuse (I don't have any craps action to watch anyway).

Sorry for asking this retarded question (twice), but hey, this is the beginners forum, right?

[Kiddangerous]

you are thinking in terms of staying in the same casino the whole night. that would get kind of tedious trying to look normal. but if you spread yourself over several casinos in a night. only staying at each one about an hour. more if theres a good shoe you want to finish or whatever, then it isnt hard at all/ an hour in a casino takes about 5 minutes to pass for me. maybe this doesnt even relate. just my opinion.

good day

[pm]

I know you can't stay in one casino too long; to be honest, a one hour session is exactly what I had in mind for wonging, and it's still perplexing me.

That's why I was asking if someone could take me through their one hour session, step by step. As many details as possible. If someone could explain it to me like they were explaining it to a retarded 4-year old...

[Sun Runner]

The answer may be .. there is no answer.

If the casino is to small, the attention to intent, a local place where you want to play often and don't want to be barred, you may not be able to pull it off. You can't use every trick at every casino every time.

Roadracers have a term: "horses for courses."

If you can't Wong, take another tack.

[Kiddangerous]

[pm]

How about if you're at a wongable casino (what's that, maybe around 40 tables?)? What's the routine then? I was reviewing Wong's section on wonging in Blackjack Secrets, and he says "... never take root and stare." How do you count a couple of rounds per new shoe, 8 or 9 times per hour, without doing that? Again, my question: how many excuses can you have for standing around idly? Or if you're not taking root and staring, as Wong says, how do you backcount at all? (I'm discounting some of the stuff he says, like counting off mirrored ceilings, and counting 3 tables at once and what-not; that sounds out of control.)

[Kiddangerous]

maybe this is where your creative thinking kicks in. at the risk of reitterating a previous poster i dont think there is a definite answer.
maybe this is where you come up with a style that defines you and suits your needs and comfort level. and is also inline with the casino you are at. surely you have come up with ways to catch a glimpse at an attractive person before, without being noticed. when i first started disc golf. i would try to attain a long drive. and in doing so i would put all my might into slinging that disc.
one day messing around. i give the disc a nonchalant toss. to my surprise the thing goes just as far as when i tried slinging with all my might. few more research throws revealed i was trying way to hard, and making things harder on myself then they should have been.

good day to you.

[Sun Runner]

> What's the routine then?

The routine is whatever it has to be. For me, it is different at each place. It depends on what is around you, what is going on around you, what you can use as a crutch. You have to be inventive and look natural.

> I was reviewing
> Wong's section on wonging in Blackjack
> Secrets, and he says "... never take
> root and stare."

I don't mean any dis-respect to Wong, but I've stopped and stared before. Maybe there were people already stopping and staring -so you gen up a conversation with them. Comment out loud about the game, comment about the dealer, gesture with your arms or hands, look natural like you are not running from the law. You see a good count, step and play some.

Sometimes if just me, I'll sally up behind a player and ask out loud, "Mind if I just watch awhile?" Most could care less. Look around a lot like you are trying to figure things out.

It's easy to walk by and count a fullish table SD or DD game. You walk by a SD game, see a table full of players and a table full of small cards, get down a bet. Don't sit down -you are just passing through.

Go with a buddy and seem to be watching and explaining the game to him/her.

> Again, my
> question: how many excuses can you have for
> standing around idly?

I've never been asked to give a reason why I was hanging around. If someone does approach you, just tell them .. anything .. and then fire a question to them .. "Hey, since your here, let me ask you, what does Insurance mean" -or some other question.

Don't always just Wong in. Say you get in and play to the end. Don't jump up; stick around. If the next shoe goes good, play through it. If it starts going bad, get up and go.

Snyder has some info on 'oppositional betting' which works great off the top and makes your betting look jerky.

I very rarely sit down if I'm trying to back count. And I generally don't go in at +1 or +2. I prefer to wait for a high count, walk up, don't sit down, and bet big in a few hands.

As for counting three tables at once, shooting counts off a mirror or shot glass .. you are asking the wrong guy. It dosen't have to be that hard.

BTW, always, always have chips ready. Don't Wong in, then bring the game to a stop, while they change your twenty.

[Coug Fan]

Sun Runners thoughts are good. Here are a couple other good reasons for lingering by a BJ table:

1. Waiting for a friend
2. Talking on a cell phone (also great for short wong-outs)
3. Waiting for your spot at the Poker table to open up (sign up for an unpopular game/limit)
4. Killing time while you wait for your round in the tournament (BJ, Pai Gow, or whatever)
5. Watching the football / basketball / baseball / european mud wrestling game (if there is a TV in view)

I have found some small casinos where you can watch tables from the bar area. Obviously, these are nice since they don't require you to stand by the table at all.

It is also helpful to just sit down outside the pit and watch what people are doing. Are there people lingering by the games? If so, what are they doing, how are they acting? A little recon goes a long way sometimes.

Finally, just do it. Most people are waaaay too self conscious about this. You do not look as out of place as you imagine.