Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 15

Thread: The Phantom: 6/8 DECK PENETRATION ERR

  1. #1
    The Phantom
    Guest

    The Phantom: 6/8 DECK PENETRATION ERR

    Assuming AC/Vegas Strip rules, might someone out there know off-hand (although it's not an off-hand question)in which of these 2 situations would a player have a better Expected Rate of Return? [Assuming just Basic Strategy expectations, I'm aware that both figures must be a negative % experience, but is there much difference?] :

    1. A 6 deck shoe w/ 65% penetration, verus

    2. An 8 deck shoe w/ 75% penetration

  2. #2
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Basic Strategy

    > Assuming AC/Vegas Strip rules, might someone
    > out there know off-hand (although it's not
    > an off-hand question)in which of these 2
    > situations would a player have a better
    > Expected Rate of Return? [Assuming just
    > Basic Strategy expectations, I'm aware that
    > both figures must be a negative %
    > experience, but is there much difference?] :

    > 1. A 6 deck shoe w/ 65% penetration, verus

    > 2. An 8 deck shoe w/ 75% penetration

    Penetration is irrelevant if you're not counting. So, with the same rules, the 6D game is better, but not by much. A 6D AC game has a house edge of about .42%, the 8D is around .44%.

    BTW, please don't post your subject line in all caps; it is the online equivalent of a screaming headline and makes the board look like the front page of the National Enquirer.

    A small thing to ask. :-)

  3. #3
    The Phantom
    Guest

    The Phantom: Re: Basic Strategy

    No more caps in headlines. Sorry.

    Of course I am card counting -- or at least getting better at it. So let me rephrase: Assuming a TC of +3, at which game would you have a better edge? Actually, I don't understand why there ought to be a difference in statistical outcome if TC is +3 or whatever; I am trying to understand where penetration makes a different in casinos that cut off 2 decks from a 6-deck shoe versus cutting off 2 decks from an 8-deck shoe. But if TC makes a big difference in outcome, assume a + 3 TC with a 1-10 spread.

    In the percentages you gave (simply Basic Strategy play)

  4. #4
    The Phantom
    Guest

    The Phantom: Re: Basic Strategy

    Are you saying that the 6 deck game is better as a rule of thumb; or are you saying that the 6 deck game with 65% penetration is still 0.02% points better than an 8 deck game with 75% penetration?

  5. #5
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: 6/8 DECK PENETRATION ERR

    > Assuming AC/Vegas Strip rules, might someone
    > out there know off-hand (although it's not
    > an off-hand question)in which of these 2
    > situations would a player have a better
    > Expected Rate of Return? [Assuming just
    > Basic Strategy expectations, I'm aware that
    > both figures must be a negative %
    > experience, but is there much difference?]:

    First, let's get BS out of the way, for which penetration doesn't matter. From BJA3, p. 394, for S17, DAS, SPA1, SPL3, NS, 6-deck house edge is
    0.40% (using C-D BS) and 8-deck house edge is 0.43%.

    For the counter, you don't mention the spread, so I'm going to use 1-16, for play-all and 1-4 for back-counting (but with a larger unit) for Hi-Lo.

    > 1. A 6 deck shoe w/ 65% penetration, verus
    From BJA3, p. 236, Table 10.42: Play-all SCORE is 15.22 and back-count SCORE is 27.02.

    > 2. An 8 deck shoe w/ 75% penetration.
    From BJA3, p. 218, Table 10.9: Play-all SCORE is 14.25 and back-count SCORE is 26.60.

    So, 6-deck is slightly better, but both stink. Late surrender will help.

    Don

  6. #6
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Basic Strategy

    > Are you saying that the 6 deck game is
    > better as a rule of thumb; or are you saying
    > that the 6 deck game with 65% penetration is
    > still 0.02% points better than an 8 deck
    > game with 75% penetration?

    Strange that you wouldn't read my answer (and Parker's, for that matter) before writing this. Penetration makes no difference to a basic strategy player. For a counter, I gave you an answer.

    Don

  7. #7
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Basic Strategy

    > Assuming a TC of +3, at which game would you
    > have a better edge?

    6-deck game, cut 4, s17, das: Hi-Lo edge at TC = +3 is 1.39%.

    8-deck game, cut 6, s17, das: Hi-Lo edge at TC = +3 is 1.36%.

    But, I think you're asking the wrong questions.

    Don

  8. #8
    The Phantom
    Guest

    The Phantom: Re: Basic Strategy

    > Strange that you wouldn't read my answer
    > (and Parker's, for that matter) before
    > writing this. Penetration makes no
    > difference to a basic strategy player. For a
    > counter, I gave you an answer.

    > Don

    -------------->

    Don,

    As to your earlier comment: I sent my last post before I received either of the reply posts, so sorry if the overlap irritated you).

    I'm here to learn, and pardon me if I asked a question that is trivial pursuits to a real pro.

    As to your comment that I am probably asking the wrong questions, you're undoubtedly right. Remedy:

    If my bankroll is still intact at the end of this weekend I will go ahead and order from your RGE catalog your book and 5 or 6 of the most-recommended others. I will study assiduously, and thereafter presumably I'll obtain the answers in self-study and be better able to ask the right questions.

    May I assume, by the way, that you got your quick, adept, and specific answer from CSX software that has been mentioned around? For beginner play I assume I'm better off sticking with the conclusions of the book-authors rather than running my own simulations. On the other hand, I hope to take a few junkets to LAS before the end of the year and for that purpose, without the standardization found in AC, the program might be useful. (?)

    Presumably you might have been more encouraging about multi-deck play if I had stated a 1-20 spread.

    In any case, thanks for the time you've taken to answer.

    And [we need some humor here] if I lose my bankroll tonight I'll certainly become, yours truly,

    The Phantom

  9. #9
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: comment

    > Strange that you wouldn't read my answer
    > (and Parker's, for that matter) before
    > writing this. Penetration makes no
    > difference to a basic strategy player. For a
    > counter, I gave you an answer.

    I was away from my computer for a while (I do have a life, of sorts), so his post may have languished for a few hours in "moderation limbo."

  10. #10
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Basic Strategy

    > As to your earlier comment: I sent my last
    > post before I received either of the reply
    > posts, so sorry if the overlap irritated
    > you).

    No, it's just that I looked at the time stamps and my reply seemed to have come two hours before your post. But, below, Parker explained how that could happen.

    > I'm here to learn, and pardon me if I asked
    > a question that is trivial pursuits to a
    > real pro.

    That's never a problem.

    > If my bankroll is still intact at the end of
    > this weekend I will go ahead and order
    > from your RGE catalog your book and 5 or 6
    > of the most-recommended others. I will study
    > assiduously, and thereafter presumably I'll
    > obtain the answers in self-study and be
    > better able to ask the right questions.

    Good plan!

    > May I assume, by the way, that you got your
    > quick, adept, and specific answer from CSX
    > software that has been mentioned around?

    No, as stated in my post, I got my answers from the BJA3 Chapter 10 charts.

    > Presumably you might have been more
    > encouraging about multi-deck play if I had
    > stated a 1-20 spread.

    Yes, as long as you can get away with it, the bigger the better.

    > In any case, thanks for the time you've
    > taken to answer.

    You're welocme.

    > And [we need some humor here] if I lose my
    > bankroll tonight I'll certainly become,
    > yours truly,

    Naw, you'll do fine. Good luck!

    Don

  11. #11
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re: Basic Strategy

    I feel your pain .. but here is the skinny.

    These guys are really smart when it comes to BJ. Really smart. Schlesinger, and Parker, and others have posted the same answer to the same questions you are asking for the last million years.

    Their patience is an amazing thing to watch .. except in the few times it runs out!!

    And if it happens to run out -which is unusual -while posting with you, don't take it personally.

    This is a great place to learn about BJ, the intentions are all good, and generally, it is a very professional atmosphere.

    If you feel like your question was not answered to your satisfaction, be persistent, but don't take a "poor me I'm just a beginner attitude."

    Think about the answers awhile, re-post, and it will eventually become clear.

    These guys would not be doing this if they deep down didn't want to help you learn.

    Good luck and stick around.

    BTW -I'll take a guess at your place on the learning curve and offer this advice. Don't buy BJA3 yet and don't buy 5 or 6 books all at once.

    What count system do you use?

  12. #12
    The Phantom
    Guest

    The Phantom: Re: Basic Strategy

    Sun Runner,

    > I feel your pain .. but here is the skinny.

    I'm not feeling pain, just a little frustration in the learning curve.

    < What counting system do you use?

    Simple hi-lo

    < I wouldn't recommend buying 5-6 books now...

    Possibly you say that because of possible mixed advice from 5-6 different books. Then what 1 or 2 might be best? My major concern at the moment is how to change the BS according to the TC.

    N.B. BS = Basic Strategy not BullS--t

  13. #13
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re: Basic Strategy

    > I'm not feeling pain, just a little
    > frustration in the learning curve.

    Good.

    > Simple hi-lo

    I would first purchase Wong's "Professional Blackjack." You won't find it at Borders or Barnes and Noble but can be bought here for $20.

    It's the far and away best primer for HiLo.

    After that, any book by Wong, Snyder, Carlson, Anderson, Humble would be good. Each (most) others will convey a different counting system. Read it, expose yourself to the information in them, but you don't have to learn each system.

    I would not read Revere's book yet as it is a classic, but the info is badly dated. (It dosen't really teach you to play BJ as a business anyway!)

    HiLo has won it's share of money.

    > Possibly you say that because of possible
    > mixed advice from 5-6 different books. Then
    > what 1 or 2 might be best? My major concern
    > at the moment is how to change the BS
    > according to the TC.

    Those changes are called "indexes." Depending on the system there can be upwards of 150 indexed changes from BS depending based on the TC.

    Schlesinger, who you have posted with previously here, carved out 18 specific indexes that gather up approx 75% of the total value of all 150. They are referred to as the Illustrious 18.

    Each count system has it's own set of indexes so you'll want to learn the ones for HiLo. Wong's book will have them.

    I might have spoken to quickly about BJA3. If you are just getting started, that book is a math lovers dream come true. It is not easy reading.

    BUT, it does contain a lot of great concepts and amswers to questions you'll have down the road.

    More importantly, it contains the latest and greatest BS information and indexes for HiLo.

    > N.B. BS = Basic Strategy not BullS--t

    Look to the left and see the "Frequently Asked Questions" drop down. Many abbreviations like 'BS' are explained there along with alot of other good basic stuff.

    Good luck.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

About Blackjack: The Forum

BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.