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Thread: newtobj: Backcounting can be uncomfortable

  1. #14
    Ouchez
    Guest

    Ouchez: The truth of the matter is, I

    > What's the best thing for a non-card counter
    > to do when someone is obviously
    > back-counting and wonging-in on their table?
    > (What's best for the non-card counter,
    > please.) Pull their hand, stay in, minimum
    > bet, double their bet? Just wondering, it
    > happens to me all the time. Thanks in
    > advance.

    usually play with a NMS rule so it is no problem.

    In those times I have gotten wonged in on I get very pissed off and let the wonger know in one way or the other. But then again that is just me, my personal feeling on the matter. I like to respect other players and will never jump in mid shoe without asking if the other players mind. Being polite in this way has paid me dividends over time with the other players.

    Wonging is fine, as long as it doesn't happen to me.

    Good cards,
    Ouchez.

  2. #15
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: No argument here

    > A back-counter's entering a game takes cards
    > away from all the players who were there
    > first and dilutes the number of rounds those
    > players will receive. If the entrant truly
    > is a counter, then the remaining players are
    > deprived of good cards that would otherwise
    > be theirs. Just because they are
    > non-counters and don't know that the count
    > is now good doesn't mean that they wouldn't
    > profit from being at the table at that
    > moment.

    > Bottom line: Players who Wong into games in
    > positive counts hurt the win rate of all the
    > other players at the table. To see this
    > clearly, what if there are just enough cards
    > left in the shoe for, say, five more hands,
    > if you're playing alone. And, the count is
    > excellent. Wouldn't you want all five hands
    > to yourself? Suppose, instead, that at that
    > very moment, a back-counter arrives and
    > spreads to four hands. You get one round,
    > and now the dealer shuffles. Did the
    > back-counter hurt you? Of course he did.

    I guess I should have quantified "short term" a little further. If someone is consistently wonging into a table when the count is positive, and leaving when it goes negative, then all the "play all" players at the table are being hurt, whether they realize it or not.

    However, the effect on a non-counter would be neglible for an isolated wong-in or two, expecially if we don't even know for sure if the wonger is a counter.

  3. #16
    Echoe
    Guest

    Echoe: Re: The truth of the matter is, I

    Is this be "ploppy" behavior?

    The reason why I ask is that we only have NMS on double deck, and on high stakes only on request, and if all players agree.

    Ever etiquette conscious, I always wait, and if someone is jumping-in on a table with good cards, or near the end of the shoe, I will usually bat my eyes and ask politely if they will wait. Most do, and only the seriously grumpy won't. Also, many players ask if they can come-in mid shoe.

    I've recently read that jumpers (whether wongers or otherwise) have "no effect" and that the odds of helping or hurting your hand are fifty-fifty, so all the histrionics one might be inclined toward are for nought.

    Just wondering with the experts think?

    > usually play with a NMS rule so it is no
    > problem.

    > In those times I have gotten wonged in on I
    > get very pissed off and let the wonger know
    > in one way or the other. But then again that
    > is just me, my personal feeling on the
    > matter. I like to respect other players and
    > will never jump in mid shoe without asking
    > if the other players mind. Being polite in
    > this way has paid me dividends over time
    > with the other players.

    > Wonging is fine, as long as it doesn't
    > happen to me.

    > Good cards,
    > Ouchez.

  4. #17
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Table manners

    > Is this be "ploppy" behavior?

    > The reason why I ask is that we only have
    > NMS on double deck, and on high stakes only
    > on request, and if all players agree.

    > Ever etiquette conscious, I always wait, and
    > if someone is jumping-in on a table with
    > good cards, or near the end of the shoe, I
    > will usually bat my eyes and ask politely if
    > they will wait. Most do, and only the
    > seriously grumpy won't. Also, many players
    > ask if they can come-in mid shoe.

    This seems to vary from one area to another. In some areas, jumping in mid-shoe is considered rude. In other areas, most notably Las Vegas, jumping in mid-shoe is commonplace, and if you ask someone to wait, they are likely to look at you as if you have lost your mind.

    > I've recently read that jumpers (whether
    > wongers or otherwise) have "no
    > effect" and that the odds of helping or
    > hurting your hand are fifty-fifty, so all
    > the histrionics one might be inclined toward
    > are for nought.

    > Just wondering with the experts think?

    You have read correctly. As discussed eleswhere in this thread, someone wonging in on high counts and dropping out on low counts will make the game worse for the play-all players, but since we cannot predict the order of the cards, someone jumping in mid-shoe may cause the cards to fall either way for that particular shoe. The idea that the mere act of someone entering the game in mid-shoe somehow "messes up the cards" is superstitious nonsense.

  5. #18
    gambler
    Guest

    gambler: Re: Have to disagree

    . If the entrant truly
    > is a counter, then the remaining players are
    > deprived of good cards that would otherwise
    > be theirs. Just because they are
    > non-counters and don't know that the count
    > is now good doesn't mean that they wouldn't
    > profit from being at the table at that
    > moment.

    Hi Don,

    firts of all, I was thinking that you forgot
    the :-) sign after your post and that you have had your social phase.

    If taking the cards of the ploppies at the end of the shoe hurts them , does it help them not play at the beginning of the shoe, when the count is rapidly falling and the ploppies are receiving the high cards in the first two decks?

  6. #19
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Effect of a Back-Counter on your Play


    See the following link



  7. #20
    gambler
    Guest

    gambler: Re: Effect of a Back-Counter on your Play

    Thanks Norm,

    your analysis states correct, that the wonger, opening a further spot, hurts a counter, who is in the play all style. But your graphs are not showing, that a BS player is hurt by a wonger.

  8. #21
    Bettie
    Guest

    Bettie: Griffin

    > Thank you for your reply and the good
    > advice. I don't know who or what Griffin is,
    > though?

    Griffin Detective Agency. They identify cheaters and skilled players for casinos, collect the information, and circulate this information to casinos who subscribe to their service. Griffin has also become a verb - as in, to be Griffin'd. In this case, it means that you've been "caught" and your photo (taken from a surveillance camera, usually) and any name and/or alias the casino has on you is now in the Griffin database for other casinos to use as "evidence" that you are a counter and no longer welcome to play BJ there. Also known as "Pure Evil."

    The Griffin flyers will contain info on all kinds of cheaters - outright slot machine theft, past-posting, etc. Griffin also covers all of the games, not just BJ. But, when it comes to BJ, they lose their minds (as if they actually had any), and spread info on anyone they think is counting - even players who just happen to be winning a lot. It's a ridiculous notion to think they have the right to spread this info just because a player uses his or her noggin but, as I said, they're clueless morons.

    Bettie

  9. #22
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Re: Effect of a Back-Counter on your Play

    I'll need to add this some time. The BS player is hurt really for the same reason. Fewer hands at positive counts.

    > Thanks Norm,

    > your analysis states correct, that the
    > wonger, opening a further spot, hurts a
    > counter, who is in the play all style. But
    > your graphs are not showing, that a BS
    > player is hurt by a wonger.

  10. #23
    Echoe
    Guest

    Echoe: Re: Griffin

    Bettie, thanks so much for this information. While I've read (here?) that my casino doesn't subscribe, I guess I should be concerned, as the pit, dealers, and players I play with regularly have often remarked that they thought I was a counter, (despite my grumpy rebuttals and losses).

    Can you, (or anyone) tell me how a service of this kind operates without running afoul of defamation suits? (Truth, being of course, the ulitmate defense to such a suit.) Do they give notice to persons listed? Or is it just a gossip sheet run by PIs with no legal recourse for the person listed who's been harmed? Just wondering, and thanks in advance for the info.

    > Griffin Detective Agency. They identify
    > cheaters and skilled players for casinos,
    > collect the information, and circulate this
    > information to casinos who subscribe to
    > their service. Griffin has also become a
    > verb - as in, to be Griffin'd. In this case,
    > it means that you've been "caught"
    > and your photo (taken from a surveillance
    > camera, usually) and any name and/or alias
    > the casino has on you is now in the Griffin
    > database for other casinos to use as
    > "evidence" that you are a counter
    > and no longer welcome to play BJ there. Also
    > known as "Pure Evil."

    > The Griffin flyers will contain info on all
    > kinds of cheaters - outright slot machine
    > theft, past-posting, etc. Griffin also
    > covers all of the games, not just BJ. But,
    > when it comes to BJ, they lose their minds
    > (as if they actually had any), and spread
    > info on anyone they think is counting - even
    > players who just happen to be winning a lot.
    > It's a ridiculous notion to think they have
    > the right to spread this info just because a
    > player uses his or her noggin but, as I
    > said, they're clueless morons.

    > Bettie

  11. #24
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Re: Griffin

    > Bettie, thanks so much for this information.
    > While I've read (here?) that my casino
    > doesn't subscribe, I guess I should be
    > concerned, as the pit, dealers, and players
    > I play with regularly have often remarked
    > that they thought I was a counter, (despite
    > my grumpy rebuttals and losses).

    Just being thought to be a counter won't normally get you into Griffin. You have to be betting fairly high stakes, and/or be thought to be part of a counting team. Usually. Or be seen in a casino with someone matching those criteria.

    > Can you, (or anyone) tell me how a service
    > of this kind operates without running afoul
    > of defamation suits? (Truth, being of
    > course, the ulitmate defense to such a
    > suit.) Do they give notice to persons
    > listed? Or is it just a gossip sheet run by
    > PIs with no legal recourse for the person
    > listed who's been harmed? Just wondering,
    > and thanks in advance for the info.

    Griffin does not share any information with anyone except subscribers, certainly not the poor guy being listed.

    Many people (myself included) feel that the whole operation is blatantly illegal, and there are indeed several lawsuits working their way through the legal system.

    Truth is, Griffin is a scam being perpetrated on the casinos. I am aware of many high stakes pros who are in Griffin (some several times), and none of them consider it more than a minor inconvenience. They are all still actively playing blackjack in casinos.

  12. #25
    Echoe
    Guest

    Echoe: Re: Griffin

    Thanks, Parker, for the info. Off the top of my head, I can certainly think of several (legal) problems with this kind of "service". Are the cases you mentioned in Vegas and AC? Do you have any details, (party names, etc.?) If not, maybe I'll just run a search. Thanks again.

    > Just being thought to be a counter won't
    > normally get you into Griffin. You have to
    > be betting fairly high stakes, and/or be
    > thought to be part of a counting team.
    > Usually. Or be seen in a casino with someone
    > matching those criteria.

    > Griffin does not share any information with
    > anyone except subscribers, certainly not the
    > poor guy being listed.

    > Many people (myself included) feel that the
    > whole operation is blatantly illegal, and
    > there are indeed several lawsuits working
    > their way through the legal system.

    > Truth is, Griffin is a scam being
    > perpetrated on the casinos. I am aware of
    > many high stakes pros who are in Griffin
    > (some several times), and none of them
    > consider it more than a minor inconvenience.
    > They are all still actively playing
    > blackjack in casinos.

  13. #26
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Re: Griffin

    > Thanks, Parker, for the info. Off the top of
    > my head, I can certainly think of several
    > (legal) problems with this kind of
    > "service". Are the cases you
    > mentioned in Vegas and AC? Do you have any
    > details, (party names, etc.?) If not, maybe
    > I'll just run a search. Thanks again.

    Sorry, I'm not at liberty to divulge any details.

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