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Thread: newtobj: Backcounting can be uncomfortable

  1. #1
    newtobj
    Guest

    newtobj: Backcounting can be uncomfortable

    I have decided to backcount for a while before sitting down to play. Playing only at TC >= +2 and wonging out when the TC <= -2. The only problem is it gets alittle uncomfortable if I backcount for too long. Has anyone out there tried this strategy, what kind of results can be expected, and how have you camouflaged it?

  2. #2
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re: Backcounting can be uncomfortable

    Now you know how Al Capone felt standing outside his first bank.

    Many times I feel like I'm on stage all alone.

    The fact is you do have to blend in, but it's not all about you. The dealers have to deal and the pit guys have other things to do besides watching you -although looking for you is one of their tasks.

    BJA2 has a good chapter on back-counting. I'm guessing BJA3 will also.

    Many times I'll just walk up to the table next to a guy (with a vacant spot) ask him (where the dealer can hear) "mind if I just watch awhile?" Usually they say sure. All the while I try to act un-informed and then might casually start betting when it "feels right."

    I never sit down. It is to cumbersome and when it is time to leave, you don't want to make a spectacle of yourself getting up.

    Always have chips ready -from some where else. Be ready to bet and have them in your hand. Hurriedly digging them out of your pocket can turn into a fiasco when you finally see a count you like.

    An alternative is to get in on the beginning -flat bet the minimum awhile -and if the shoe dosen't start cooking, get up and leave. I usually give it two decks or so.

  3. #3
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Backcounting can be uncomfortable

    > BJA2 has a good chapter on back-counting.
    > I'm guessing BJA3 will also.

    Same Chapter 1. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! :-)

    Don


  4. #4
    Echoe
    Guest

    Echoe: Re: A Stupid Question

    What's the best thing for a non-card counter to do when someone is obviously back-counting and wonging-in on their table? (What's best for the non-card counter, please.) Pull their hand, stay in, minimum bet, double their bet? Just wondering, it happens to me all the time. Thanks in advance.

  5. #5
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Doesn't matter

    > What's the best thing for a non-card counter
    > to do when someone is obviously
    > back-counting and wonging-in on their table?
    > (What's best for the non-card counter,
    > please.) Pull their hand, stay in, minimum
    > bet, double their bet? Just wondering, it
    > happens to me all the time. Thanks in
    > advance.

    Do whatever you like. If you're not counting, then the wonger has absolutely no effect on your game, at least in the short term.

    If you want to make the wonger happy, immediately leave the table when someone wongs in.

    OTOH, if you are completely certain that the person entering the game mid-shoe is indeed a card counter/wonger, and you have confidence in his/her abilities, why not come along for the ride? Increase your bet.

  6. #6
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re: A Stupid Question

    > Just wondering, it happens to me all the time.

    Watch their play and see if they even know BS; just because someone is jumping in dosen't make them a counter. I've seen guys jump in with fists full of money and .. poof .. it's gone.

  7. #7
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: So?

    > I've seen guys
    > jump in with fists full of money and .. poof
    > .. it's gone.

    That doesn't necessarily mean that they're not a counter - it happens to me fairly often! :-(

  8. #8
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: True enough! *NM*


  9. #9
    Viktor Nacht
    Guest

    Viktor Nacht: Re: Doesn't matter

    > OTOH, if you are completely certain that the
    > person entering the game mid-shoe is indeed
    > a card counter/wonger, and you have
    > confidence in his/her abilities, why not
    > come along for the ride? Increase your bet.

    I would caution against this. If this person is blatant and/or persistent enough, eventually he will be pegged. And if you raise your bets in tandem with his, you're screwed. Griffin and its related ilk are rife with innocent, unskilled players that were suspected of calling in BPs.

    I err on the paranoid side at all times, so you can take the above with a grain of salt. When I jump my bets the machismo of other guys at the player will often compel them to follow suit. This kind of thing happens all to time to regular players. I would just cringe at the idea of risking association with someone Wonging into your table.

    Good Cards,

    V

  10. #10
    Echoe
    Guest

    Echoe: Re: Doesn't matter

    > Do whatever you like. If you're not
    > counting, then the wonger has absolutely no
    > effect on your game, at least in the short
    > term.

    Thanks, Parker. I figured that would be the answer -- no effect.

    > If you want to make the wonger happy,
    > immediately leave the table when someone
    > wongs in.

    No one's happy when I leave the table, Why would a wonger be? (Seriously wondering.)

    The net effect of me pulling my hand for the rest of the shoe *seems* to be that every one wins the rest of the shoe, and I'm stuck with my earlier losses for that shoe. The short term effect *seems* to be that when I stay in, I end up losing the rest of my hands.

    > OTOH, if you are completely certain that the
    > person entering the game mid-shoe is indeed
    > a card counter/wonger, and you have
    > confidence in his/her abilities, why not
    > come along for the ride? Increase your bet.

    I think wongers are easy to identify in my casino. It's a relatively small place with low heat, (except during swing shift). It's only skilled players who stand and backcount, (everyone else rushes in) and these new guys, well, I can never be sure enough of their abilities to risk an increased wager on my (now small) bankroll.

    Thanks for your reply.

  11. #11
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Re: Doesn't matter

    > Thanks, Parker. I figured that would be the
    > answer -- no effect.

    > No one's happy when I leave the table,
    > Why would a wonger be? (Seriously
    > wondering.)

    With fewer players at the table, the wonger is likely to be able to play more rounds before the count drops or the cut card pops out.

    > The net effect of me pulling my hand for the
    > rest of the shoe *seems* to be that every
    > one wins the rest of the shoe, and I'm stuck
    > with my earlier losses for that shoe. The
    > short term effect *seems* to be that when I
    > stay in, I end up losing the rest of my
    > hands.

    In the short term, anything can happen, and usually does. Any trends that "seem" to occur are the result of nothing more than selective memory. You remember selective memory, right?

    > I think wongers are easy to identify in my
    > casino. It's a relatively small place with
    > low heat, (except during swing shift). It's
    > only skilled players who stand and
    > backcount, (everyone else rushes in) and
    > these new guys, well, I can never be sure
    > enough of their abilities to risk an
    > increased wager on my (now small) bankroll.

    Lots of people, of all experience and skill levels, like to watch a few rounds before jumping in. You cannot really draw any conclusions without watching the person play for a while.

  12. #12
    Echoe
    Guest

    Echoe: Re: Doesn't matter

    Thank you for your reply and the good advice. I don't know who or what Griffin is, though?

    To be honest, I don't suffer from machismo betting impulses, (just the opposite, which has been my problem, even when the dealer is pushing green at me).

    I also reckon I stand zero chance of being banned from my casino at this point, no matter what I do. They know me too well, and though large bet spreads would be out of character for me and not go unnoticed, they'd probably let me have my way...for a while.

    So...I've got great cover. That's why I need to make a big play with a new strategy...and so far, counting isn't going so well.

    Thanks again.

    > I would caution against this. If this person
    > is blatant and/or persistent enough,
    > eventually he will be pegged. And if you
    > raise your bets in tandem with his, you're
    > screwed. Griffin and its related ilk are
    > rife with innocent, unskilled players that
    > were suspected of calling in BPs.

    > I err on the paranoid side at all times, so
    > you can take the above with a grain of salt.
    > When I jump my bets the machismo of other
    > guys at the player will often compel them to
    > follow suit. This kind of thing happens all
    > to time to regular players. I would just
    > cringe at the idea of risking association
    > with someone Wonging into your table.

    > Good Cards,

    > V

  13. #13
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Have to disagree

    > Do whatever you like. If you're not
    > counting, then the wonger has absolutely no
    > effect on your game, at least in the short
    > term.

    A back-counter's entering a game takes cards away from all the players who were there first and dilutes the number of rounds those players will receive. If the entrant truly is a counter, then the remaining players are deprived of good cards that would otherwise be theirs. Just because they are non-counters and don't know that the count is now good doesn't mean that they wouldn't profit from being at the table at that moment.

    Bottom line: Players who Wong into games in positive counts hurt the win rate of all the other players at the table. To see this clearly, what if there are just enough cards left in the shoe for, say, five more hands, if you're playing alone. And, the count is excellent. Wouldn't you want all five hands to yourself? Suppose, instead, that at that very moment, a back-counter arrives and spreads to four hands. You get one round, and now the dealer shuffles. Did the back-counter hurt you? Of course he did.

    Don

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