Wildcat: Multiple Burn Cards

[Wildcat]

Please settle this argument I have with a fellow blackjack enthusiast: In certain casinos at the SD/DD tables,a dealer will sometimes burn 3-5 cards off the top of a new deal, instead of the usual 1 card burn. I contend that this changes the accuracy of the count; my friend disgrees and says that since those burned cards are no longer available to either player or dealer, it is a neutral manuever and the true count should start at whatever number is appropriate for the counting system being used. Your thoughts on this subject are greatly appreciated.

[Sun Runner]

Your friend is right.

If playing a balanced count, RC starts at zero and TC starts at zero. If an unbalanced count, RC starts at whatever the system dictates.

If this was a 6D or 8D game, by burning multiple cards, only the penetration has changed -slightly.

It probably makes no difference at all in SD as the hands dealt will still be limited by the number of players.

Would you feel any different if the dealer stuck the extra burn cards behind the cut card?

[Dancer]

[Norm Wattenberger]

The burn cards sit in the discard tray and may cause you to misestimate the depth as they shouldn't be counted as discards.

Serious Blackjack Software

[SOTSOG]

Hmmm... Do they 'always' burn multiple cards at certain casinos, or do they 'sometimes' burn multiple cards?

Maybe the dealer is burning multiple cards when he messes up stacking the deck?

Even if cheating is not occuring, if it is not standard procedure, I would raise a big stink when they did it. Claim the dealer just stripped off all the Kings, or something, and is now burning them off. If you are lucky, maybe they will show you the burn cards to prove you are wrong.

[sam]

Maybe this is another instance of common sense and math colliding and math coming away without a scratch but........ If those 5 or 6 cards were all ten value cards, wouldn't that negatively affect the probablity of the shoe reaching a player-favorable count? Or positively affecting the probability if the 5 or 6 cards were small value? Or is the difference so minor one shouldn't care? Thanks.

Sam

> Hmmm... Do they 'always' burn multiple cards
> at certain casinos, or do they 'sometimes'
> burn multiple cards?

> Maybe the dealer is burning multiple cards
> when he messes up stacking the deck?

> Even if cheating is not occuring, if it is
> not standard procedure, I would raise a big
> stink when they did it. Claim the dealer
> just stripped off all the Kings, or
> something, and is now burning them off. If
> you are lucky, maybe they will show you the
> burn cards to prove you are wrong.

[Dancer]

> Maybe this is another instance of common
> sense and math colliding and math coming
> away without a scratch but........ If those
> 5 or 6 cards were all ten value cards,
> wouldn't that negatively affect the
> probablity of the shoe reaching a
> player-favorable count? Or positively
> affecting the probability if the 5 or 6
> cards were small value? Or is the difference
> so minor one shouldn't care? Thanks.

> Sam

Math wins...

If you KNEW the burned cards were small ones, yes, it would help you. The point is, you don't know, and there's an equal probability of them being large cards.

Here's the key... There's no difference between burned cards and cards that are behind the cut card and never played (other than the penetration note Norm mentioned). Unseen cards are unseen cards -- regardless of where they occur.

One correction for you, though. If, as you mentioned, the burned cards happen to all be large ones, the shoe would be MORE likely to reach a player-favorable count not less likely. Why, because there are a disproportionate number of small cards remaining to be played. As they come out, the count would rise, and there would be fewer large cards coming out to bring it back down.

[Sun Runner]

> One correction for you, though. If, as you
> mentioned, the burned cards happen to all be
> large ones, the shoe would be MORE likely to
> reach a player-favorable count not less
> likely.

Excellent point.

Unfortunately, you would reach that point with the shoe over because all the high cards were either "burned" or ended up behind the cut.

Something else to consider: You don't generally make your money as the count is rising, you make it as the count is falling. Ya, your pumped as the count starts climbing, but if it never comes down, those big cards aren't coming out.

[sam]

Thanks and thanks. I was thinking fewer large cards there when the key count or better is reached if those 5 or 6 burnt were large. So the good time could be shorter as result of the large cards having been played. What I'm finding is that one shoe in four or so makes it to the key count and the advantage lasts maybe 1-3 hands in a six deck 85% pen. KO is my first counting experience so I'm wondering if what I've seen so far could be typical of the advantage this system provides. I do know it's tough so far to make a buck betting red. But it surely feels good to think "I beat the bastards" when it happens as you think it should even with a few red chips out. Thanks again for your help.

Sam

> Excellent point.

> Unfortunately, you would reach that point
> with the shoe over because all the high
> cards were either "burned" or
> ended up behind the cut.

> Something else to consider: You don't
> generally make your money as the count is
> rising, you make it as the count is falling.
> Ya, your pumped as the count starts
> climbing, but if it never comes down, those
> big cards aren't coming out.

[Sun Runner]

> What I'm finding is that one shoe in
> four or so makes it to the key count and the
> advantage lasts maybe 1-3 hands in a six
> deck 85% pen ... I do know
> it's tough so far to make a buck betting
> red.

First of all, congratulations on finding 85% pen.

That's why it takes a large spread to beat 6D if your playing all. If you don't mind .. what spread do you use and what is the table minimum where you frequently play?

> But it surely feels good to think
> "I beat the bastards" when it
> happens as you think it should even with a
> few red chips out.

It feels REALLY good. Just barely good enough to make you overlook the beats you took when you shouldn't have.

[sam]

I've been using the KO spread: 1-10 ramp on $5 tables. I'm trying to build a bankroll that is adequate. $7500 is what I'm building towards. In the meanwhile, I buy in for $300 and wong using the KO standard exit strategy. I limit my loss to this initial buy in and quit play with any sustained profit. Thanks for your help.

Sam

> First of all, congratulations on finding 85%
> pen.

> That's why it takes a large spread to beat
> 6D if your playing all. If you don't mind ..
> what spread do you use and what is the table
> minimum where you frequently play?

> It feels REALLY good. Just barely good
> enough to make you overlook the beats you
> took when you shouldn't have.

[Sun Runner]

(Sam): "I do know it's tough so far to make a buck betting red."

What you said is true. In light of that, I think a 1-10 spread is marginal. If you could spread at least
1-12 and not kill your BR, you would be better off.

I started playing KO and from the key to the pivot I spread 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,10,12. On a $5 table that was 50 max bets for me, which I felt comfortable with.

I'm not sure the ROR on a 50 max bet BR, but if your BR (and the playing conditions) allowed you to spread 1-15 or 1-20 (using a 50 unit max bet) -it would be worth the risk for me, starting out.

Good Luck.

[sam]

Sun,

Thanks again. Adequate BR is the problem. I expect I won't be where I need to be before next spring so in the meanwhile I attempt to hit and run and play within the BR I have. I can see the necessity of getting a larger bet out in advantage situations but I got kicked in the head a bunch of times before beginning to count by overplaying my BR as just a BS player. Don't want to do that and feel that way anymore. Thanks again. I'll let you know how things go.

Sam

> (Sam): "I do know it's tough so far to
> make a buck betting red."

> What you said is true. In light of that, I
> think a 1-10 spread is marginal. If you
> could spread at least
> 1-12 and not kill your BR, you would be
> better off.

> I started playing KO and from the key to the
> pivot I spread 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,10,12. On a $5
> table that was 50 max bets for me, which I
> felt comfortable with.

> I'm not sure the ROR on a 50 max bet BR, but
> if your BR (and the playing conditions)
> allowed you to spread 1-15 or 1-20 (using a
> 50 unit max bet) -it would be worth the risk
> for me, starting out.

> Good Luck.