newby: To any card counter...novice needs advices

[newby]

Hi,

to anybody: I just read my first book on blackjack, Twenty-first Century Blackjack, by Walter Thomason, who advocate progressive betting with quit points, and after this reading I came to the logical conclusion that both flat betting and progressive betting will make you loose money in the run, whatever Mr. Thomason's arguments might be.
I also intuitively think that card couting is logically supposed to make you win money in the long run. The problem that I saw with card counting was that it was "illegal", and thus you were highly subject to casino harassment. BUT I learned yesterday that here in Montreal it is illegal for the casino to kick you out, even if they're 100% sure that you're a skilled card counter. THUS, since I love the game of bj, have much free time, and have no doubts about my intellectual skills, I'm seriously considering to give card counting a try.
So, I have a couple of questions:
1) What book(s) on card counting would you recommand?
2) What is the minimum bankroll required to test the system?
3) Do you really think that card counting is a good way to earn money on a part-time basis (after all I'm a full-time student)?

Please if you have any other advice, I would very much appreciate any clues you might give me.

Thank you

[Parker]

> Hi,

> to anybody: I just read my first book on
> blackjack, Twenty-first Century Blackjack,
> by Walter Thomason, who advocate progressive
> betting with quit points, and after this
> reading I came to the logical conclusion
> that both flat betting and progressive
> betting will make you loose money in the
> run, whatever Mr. Thomason's arguments might
> be.

Your logic is good. Thomason's book is a sad waste of perfectly good trees. The only way one can make money at blackjack is to determine when one has the edge by counting cards or other methods and bet more at those times. Betting progressions or "money management" schemes do not affect the house advantage.

> I also intuitively think that card couting
> is logically supposed to make you win money
> in the long run. The problem that I saw with
> card counting was that it was
> "illegal", and thus you were
> highly subject to casino harassment. BUT I
> learned yesterday that here in Montreal it
> is illegal for the casino to kick you out,
> even if they're 100% sure that you're a
> skilled card counter. THUS, since I love the
> game of bj, have much free time, and have no
> doubts about my intellectual skills, I'm
> seriously considering to give card counting
> a try.

It is perfectly legal to count cards anywhere in the USA, Canada, and most of the rest of the world. In order to outlaw card counting, legislators would essentially have to outlaw thinking.

However, do not think for a minute that this precludes the casinos from taking defensive measures once they determine that you are a skilled player. There are several ways that they can make the game unplayable with having to "kick you out."

> So, I have a couple of questions:
> 1) What book(s) on card counting would you
> recommand?

All of the books listed in our online catalog are good. An excellent first book is Blackjack in the Zone, second edition, by Rick "Night Train" Blaine. It includes the best detailed, step-by-step outline on the mechanics of learning to count cards that I have ever seen. Add a copy of Professional Blackjack, by Stanford Wong, and you have all the fundamentals covered.

> 2) What is the minimum bankroll required to
> test the system?

First off, it is not necessary to "test the system." We've spent the last 40 years doing just that. Trust me, it works.

It is impossible to come up with a bankroll figure without knowing the games and stakes you will be playing, along with your tolerance for risk. You can start fairly small if you can accept a lot of risk, that is, you may well lose every cent you put into it. For a starting ballpark figure, consider 100 max bets.

> 3) Do you really think that card counting is
> a good way to earn money on a part-time
> basis (after all I'm a full-time student)?

If your goal is a steady income, absolutely not! This is NOT an easy way to make money. You will experience huge swings, both positive and negative, and extended losing streaks. There is a sort of "catch-22" in advantage play: If you have amassed the bankroll necessary for successful play, you have undoubtedly found an easier way to make money.

Most small-stakes players play primarily for enjoyment and the challenge of beating the casinos at their own game, rather than realizing any significant profit.

> Please if you have any other advice, I would
> very much appreciate any clues you might
> give me.

Read the books mentioned above, ask lots of questions on forums such as these, and practice, practice, practice, before you ever set foot inside a casino.

[Norm Wattenberger]

I can't add anything to Parker's excellent response. I will say that you're off to a good start by having the intelligence to see through "Twenty-first Century Blackjack." It's sad to think of the people that take this book seriously.

BJStats

[newby]

First, thank you very much for your answers, but still I would much appreciate if you could clarify some points.

> However, do not think for a minute that this
> precludes the casinos from taking defensive
> measures once they determine that you are a
> skilled player. There are several ways that
> they can make the game unplayable with
> having to "kick you out."

How can they do that???

> All of the books listed in our online
> catalog are good. An excellent first book is
> Blackjack in the Zone, second edition, by
> Rick "Night Train" Blaine. It
> includes the best detailed, step-by-step
> outline on the mechanics of learning to
> count cards that I have ever seen. Add a
> copy of Professional Blackjack, by
> Stanford Wong, and you have all the
> fundamentals covered.

thanks for the advise

> First off, it is not necessary to "test
> the system." We've spent the last 40
> years doing just that. Trust me, it works. (...)
> If your goal is a steady income, absolutely
> not! This is NOT an easy way to make
> money. You will experience huge swings, both
> positive and negative, and extended losing
> streaks. There is a sort of
> "catch-22" in advantage play: If
> you have amassed the bankroll necessary for
> successful play, you have undoubtedly found
> an easier way to make money.

With all due respect, I find your position a bit contradictory. If the system really works, why do you think it is a not a good idea to play my bankroll on it?

> Most small-stakes players play primarily for
> enjoyment and the challenge of beating the
> casinos at their own game, rather than
> realizing any significant profit.

I agree, but maybe would I like to give card counting a more serious try.

> Read the books mentioned above, ask lots of
> questions on forums such as these, and
> practice, practice, practice, before you
> ever set foot inside a casino.

Once again, thank you very much for everything, but still I don't understand how you can advise not to risk my money on this, and at the same time recommand me books and tell me that the system works.

[newby]

> I can't add anything to Parker's excellent
> response. I will say that you're off to a
> good start by having the intelligence to see
> through "Twenty-first Century
> Blackjack." It's sad to think of the
> people that take this book seriously.

Thank you for your answer

[newby]

> All of the books listed in our online
> catalog are good. An excellent first book is
> Blackjack in the Zone, second edition, by
> Rick "Night Train" Blaine. It
> includes the best detailed, step-by-step
> outline on the mechanics of learning to
> count cards that I have ever seen. Add a
> copy of Professional Blackjack, by
> Stanford Wong, and you have all the
> fundamentals covered.

Its a a little hard here in Montreal to find books about blackjack, so I buy them on Amazon. However, there seems to be 2 problems:
1) They don't have Blackjack in the Zone
2) I read the customers' reviews about Professional Blackjack, by Stanford Wong, and even though many customers suggest that this is a well-documented book, many also say that it is outdated on many aspects.
What do you think of that, and what other book(s) would you recommand to replace Blackjack in the Zone?

Thank you again

[Franz Joseph]

> Avoid any book by John Patrick, John Scarne or Jerry Patterson. Avoid "Powerful Profits from Blackjack." Avoid "Blackjack for the Clueless." This list is not exhaustive.

[Parker]

> With all due respect, I find your position a
> bit contradictory. If the system really
> works, why do you think it is a not a good
> idea to play my bankroll on it?

You are playing with a small edge, and a large variance. Your average win rate may be, for example, $50 per hour, but this does not mean that you can play 10 hours per week and expect to make $500 per week. Over a period of several years it will average out to that, but on any given week you may win or lose several thousand dollars. You also are likely to have several consecutive losing weeks.

> I agree, but maybe would I like to give card
> counting a more serious try.

I'm not telling you not to do it, just to be aware of what can happen, and not to think of it as a part time job.

> Once again, thank you very much for
> everything, but still I don't understand how
> you can advise not to risk my money on this,
> and at the same time recommand me books and
> tell me that the system works.

See above. If you can put together an adequate bankroll, and the thought of losing it all does not drive you to depression, then go for it. Again, just get a good understanding of what you are getting yourself into.

[Parker]

> Its a a little hard here in Montreal to find
> books about blackjack, so I buy them on
> Amazon. However, there seems to be 2
> problems:
> 1) They don't have Blackjack in the Zone

They don't have a lot of good blackjack books. So order it directly from us. We ship anywhere in the world and offer a money-back guarantee if not completely satisfied. In addition, you will be helping to support this website.

Just click on the Online Catalog link above.

> 2) I read the customers' reviews about
> Professional Blackjack, by Stanford Wong,
> and even though many customers suggest that
> this is a well-documented book, many also
> say that it is outdated on many aspects.
> What do you think of that, and what other
> book(s) would you recommand to replace
> Blackjack in the Zone?

One of my problems with Amazon is that absolutely any idiot can review a book there. Professional Blackjack has been around for many years, but the fundamentals have not changed - the game is still played with decks of 52 cards and the rules are the same. Some parts are a little dated, but it is stilll one of the finest works available on card counting, and the definitive reference for the Hi-lo counting system.

You will get the fundamentals from Professional Blackjack, and Blackjack in the Zone (just published last year) will bring you up to date.

[newby]

Ok thank you for the advise

[Parker]

Add to the list: Anything by Richard Harvey, Progressions Blackjack, by Donald Dahl.

Sadly, there are more bad books than good ones.

[newby]

> You are playing with a small edge, and a
> large variance. Your average win rate may
> be, for example, $50 per hour, but this does
> not mean that you can play 10 hours per week
> and expect to make $500 per week. Over a
> period of several years it will average out
> to that, but on any given week you may win
> or lose several thousand dollars. You also
> are likely to have several consecutive
> losing weeks.

> I'm not telling you not to do it, just to be
> aware of what can happen, and not to think
> of it as a part time job.

> See above. If you can put together an
> adequate bankroll, and the thought of losing
> it all does not drive you to depression,
> then go for it. Again, just get a good
> understanding of what you are getting
> yourself into.

Your advises sound quite sensitive. Thank you for your help. I'll certainly think about it for a long time and practice a lot before ever trying the system (if I ever try it). I fully understand this is no easy way to big cash (as you say we're playing with a small edge and a very large variance), and never did I consider it to replace my main source of revenue. I'm only considering putting some extra $$ I have as my bankroll, and try to make it grow over the years, or maybe just wait for a good winning strike and enjoy my profits.

P.S. What do you think of quit points? I realize it makes no mathematical sense, but intuitively I would tend not to reject the idea so fast.

[Franz Joseph]

> Add to the list: Anything by Richard Harvey,
> Progressions Blackjack, by Donald Dahl.

> Sadly, there are more bad books than good
> ones.

I wrote that my list is not exhaustive. The books that you mention should also be avoided.