bfbagain: Midwest BJ Conditions/State of BJ comments

[bfbagain]

My comments may be misconstrued, so please accept my apologies.

Although casinos have proliferated in the country, and the Midwest has its fair share, it has become my belief, based on the seemingly lack of enticing complimentaries, specifically in the Midwest, and more specific - the upper Midwest, that casino management has targeted the uninformed casino patron as it's target customer.

What I mean by this is that they only offer bad rules, bad penetration, generally bad conditions, as they really can't offer the same type of complimentaries as what the major gaming destinations (in the US) can offer, thereby there's no incentive to compete against other casinos.

This is manifested in how the casino management mentality conducts itself regarding the maximizing of its BJ hold, i.e., it's BJ profit margins.

A better example may serve to illustrate this point: In Las Vegas, and specifically on the strip, Caesars Entertainment Corp, (formerly Park Place Entertainment), decided to test the waters and see just how math illiterate the average Las Vegas tourist was by introducing what has now become known as the 6:5 Single Deck BJ "short pay" scam. In fact, they were so confident of this that Bally's proudly proclaimed 6:5 SD BJ on it's strip marquee! People, believe it or not, flocked to the games, and the casinos initially were seeing huge gains in their traditional BJ holds. This would further the belief by casino management that they should target their games to people who would "tolerate" bad games, bad rules, etc. for the opportunity to play BJ at "lower limits, i.e., $5 minimums."

What casinos in other parts of the country have going for them is the ability for "locals" to have the same opportunity to play BJ at lower limits without the cost of travel expenses, thus the reduced need for travel related complimentaries.

But then the question arises as to why don't they provide the better games to "higher" limit players, as do the gaming destination casinos do?

And here is where I believe that the lack of need, relating to travel, eating, and even shows, i.e., a gaming vacation type destination comes into play.

The harder core bigger player, will still end up playing in these inferior games, knowing that they don't have to travel.

But they are wrong.

The cost to most of these players, (the higher limit ones that is) is usually much greater than the cost of airfare, and the comps that can be used to offset both the accommodations and food expenses that travel from home requires.

And to finally get to the Potawatomi as another illustrative example, this casino sits within a couple of miles from downtown Milwaukee. In effect, they have a captive clientele, and thus they have no need to offer better games, as there are many people to fill the tables as to the closeness to home availability it provides.

So whereas casino gambling has spread across the country, it hasn't actually increased overall competition.

There is really only one way for that to happen, and it may finally have started, and that is that the casino BJ holds are starting to dramatically decline (see July 2004 Nv. numbers) and casino advisors are pointing to the public's learning, and staying away from, the infamous 6:5 BJ scam.

Now in Vegas, and other places as well. e.g., Biloxi, Tunica, and others, the high roller gets the better games as to their "expectation" of being treated to comps, for their allegiance, relay requirements, to the casino/hotel providing the room, food, and beverage.

BTW, Atlantic City, although the state law requiring the non-barring of counters is generally attributed for this effect, also IMO, learned this years ago. In fact, I believe this has had more of a reason for their bad games, than the so-called "counter" countermeasure, as last I checked, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and more, are relatively "short" drives away.

Now, to be fair, there are some playable games in the Midwest (and other similar locations), but they still require an investment in "time." That is, the time to drive to and from, or, to and to, other casinos that may be (likely actually) miles and miles away from each other.

Some distances may be helpful to illustrate this point.

Chicago to Milwaukee is 90 miles. Milwaukee to Green Bay (Oneida) is 125 miles. Green Bay to Escanaba, Mi. (Chips-In's Island) is 110 miles.

What about all the Chicago area casinos, one may ask?

Some answers. Downtown Chicago to Grand Victoria (Elgin, Il) is 45 miles. To Hammond, In (Harrahs/Horseshoe) is 19 miles. To Harrahs East Chicago is 25. To the Blue Chip (Michigan City, In) is 60 miles. To Empress (Joliet, Il) is 50 miles.

They all, with one exception (Blue Chip), suck. Actually, Harrahs East Chicago may also have some better conditions, but again (the purpose for this post) it more likely exists in their high limit room than in the main casino.

In fact, for comp purposes, the only reason to even visit a Harrahs casino, is to (hopefully) accrue comp credits to be used elsewhere.

Now, this may change a little if Colony can finalize the purchase of the Harrahs East Chicago Casino. ( They now own the LV Hilton).

All this is really to say, that the target, re:exploitation of casino BJ gamblers is towards the red chip player. In the Chicago area, they are a little more brazen, as they include the green chip player. The Grand Victoria (which offers the same game, albeit without the shuffle machines that the Pot uses) has only a few tables (at any time of the day or night) that are NOT $25 minimums. There is absolutely no reason to visit that casino at all (unless you employ other methods besides traditional card counting).

So, in the end, it is my humble opinion, if you plan (or expect) to play a winning game, that you might as well enroll in as many frequent flier programs as you can, as that's the only way (in today's environment) that you can expect to play in high quality games. Generally speaking.

I don't have a need to play BJ. My need is to "win" at BJ. Therefore, I only play in high quality games. If one would come to the conclusion that I rarely play Midwest casinos, (with certain exceptions) they would have made the correct assumption.

And in my opinion, so should any knowledgeable player.

That's the state of BJ today. Pathetic, but still with opportunities, albeit requiring smarter travel.

Should I "drive" to the upper Midwest for the marginally better game? Or should I fly to Vegas, Reno, Biloxi, Tunica, etc.. ?

No contest. As I continue to rack up my FF miles.

cheers
bfb

[Jack Fate]

What you have laid out, is by and large correct.
The games in the midwest are, for the most part, featuring mediocre rules and poor pen. Unfortunately even the high limit non-AP does not recognize this.One can only hope that players become a little more educated and refuse to patronize these games. Until that happens I, like you, will travel. Any place casinos are clustered, creating competion, will offer the best opportunity.

[Ouchez]

> My comments may be misconstrued, so please
> accept my apologies.

you are basically correct and well thought out on this matter.

Most people that frequent casinos are to stupid or lazy to find out what the real score is. So the casino charges whatever the market will bear and the politicos look the other way with one hand out. And the customers keep coming and coming. I think it is very sad.

I know there are some very playable games and I will play those but never a game I do not feel I can beat.

There are places in the Midwest where competition has made a difference, in favor to the player.

But again you are very much on the mark, Kudos to you.

Strength and Honor,
Ouchez.

[Sun Runner]

> Most people that frequent casinos are to
> stupid or lazy to find out what the real
> score is.

And you want the legislature to take care of them? I know you don't want that.

> So the casino charges whatever the
> market will bear ...

Of course they do. Why should they be any different than GM or Ford or you or me.

> .. and the politicos look the other way with one hand out.

Again, inviting the legislature into the mix is a bad bad idea.

> And the customers keep coming and coming. I think it is very sad.

It is very sad, I agree.

But it's gambling. People have a right to read the rules and play or not.

With all due respect, you guys in the 'Heartland' (it ain't the Heartland by the way) are a little spoiled. You have a million casinos within driving distance and you are a little chapped they all don't offer good games. I suppose I would be to.

But I have to drive a minimum of six hours to a barely playable game and more like eight or twelve to the first decent game.

It's gambling. If the casino can get away offering crap .. I guess that is their right.

[Ouchez]

> And you want the legislature to take care of
> them? I know you don't want that.

Not -them-, just force the casino to gamble like its patrons do, the price of having a "License to steal". Good games is what they should be forced to offer, if they don't like it, give up the license. See how many would do that.

> Of course they do. Why should they be any
> different than GM or Ford or you or me.

> Again, inviting the legislature into the mix
> is a bad bad idea.

Hang on...they are already waist deep in it!

> It is very sad, I agree.

> But it's gambling. People have a right to
> read the rules and play or not.

> With all due respect, you guys in the
> 'Heartland' (it ain't the Heartland by the
> way) are a little spoiled. You have a
> million casinos within driving distance and
> you are a little chapped they all don't
> offer good games. I suppose I would be to.

> But I have to drive a minimum of six hours
> to a barely playable game and more like
> eight or twelve to the first decent game.

> It's gambling. If the casino can get away
> offering crap .. I guess that is their
> right.

Wanna play some fine BJ, Dude? Come visit me and I will see you get all the good BJ you can handle, the offer is always open. Fly Baby, Fly!

Another Get together is just around the corner. Lets have at it *Bad Boy*!

Strength and Honor
Ouchez.

[MrPill]

> I know there are some very playable games
> and I will play those but never a game I do
> not feel I can beat.

Amen to that!

See Ya!

Pill

[Sun Runner]

> Not -them-, just force the casino to gamble
> like its patrons do, the price of having a
> "License to steal". Good games is
> what they should be forced to offer

Who do think should define a 'good game?'
Hmmm .. maybe AC would be a good role model.

> Hang on...they are already waist deep in it!

You are right, they are. Bought and paid for. So you want them involved even more?

Things evolve well enough with out more legislation.

> Wanna play some fine BJ, Dude? Come visit me
> and I will see you get all the good BJ you
> can handle, the offer is always open. Fly
> Baby, Fly!

I have been looking forward to that since I missed your last blow out.

[Ouchez]

> Who do think should define a 'good game?'
> Hmmm .. maybe AC would be a good role model.

I will define a good game.

> You are right, they are. Bought and paid
> for. So you want them involved even more?

Only if they follow my commands!

> I have been looking forward to that since I
> missed your last blow out.

Well, come on then and meet the guys, and gals. I know you can afford it, Esquire.

Strength and Honor,
Ouchez.

[Jack Fate]

> But I have to drive a minimum of six hours
> to a barely playable game and more like
> eight or twelve to the first decent game.

Same situation here for me,SR. Your right about goverment interfearance. Water seeks its own level. We won't see better games until people stop playing the crappy ones. Any industry that puts out an inferior product will continue to do so until it hurts the bottom line. Thats free enterprise. Nothing wrong with that.

[Sun Runner]

To be clear, I'm talking only about the rules of the game being offered.

I do believe the casino, and the bought and paid for politicos, are totally out of line in many areas, and should be held accountable, where it comes to trampling on individual rights as it applies to who gets to play.

We will get the worst best game they can get away with consistent on their perception of what maximizes their profits.

Granted there are two extreme schools of thought on how that can be accomplished.

I guess one could be the Bill Zender school of casino management and the other, maybe the Milwakee-Detroit-Chicago area school of management.

Which is best in maximizing casino profits for the casino? I am not qualified to say.

Who gets to choose? The folks offering up the bet and backing the play, I'd say.

Legislate cheating from both sides of the table. But ask the legislature to protect the ignorant and stupid from making a 'bad' bet -no thank you.

They already make me wear seat belts for my own good.

[Radar]

Great post. We can all learn something here. I think you say it best when you say...

> I don't have a need to play BJ. My need is
> to "win" at BJ. Therefore, I only
> play in high quality games.

We all should adopt this strategy!

Radar

[Lou Percalia]

I don't know if I agree with all that. I'm sure you can find games all over the country that are typically better than the Midwestern games. But you can find a lot more that are worse! I've played up in Michigan, Escanaba and all the other nearby places, and I'll take those Indian games over anything in AC or the Northeast US. Low limits, usually uncrowded, and virtually no heat compared to Nevada. The only places I've ever been booted out of were in Nevada and I've played maybe 10% of my BJ there.

Maybe it's because I'm a new counter and I don't remember BJ "the way it used to be". 3:2 SD on the Strip was long, long gone when I started. So I don't know, for my style of play I find the Midwestern type games very playable.

[sam]

The 6d games are playable at Caesars on the Ohio. Lots of $5,$10, & $25 tables. 5/6 pen (some few dealers 4.5/6), S17, DAS, DOA, Split 3 except aces, no surrender. No heat on red. The drawback is the crowded conditions. Most red tables shoulder to shoulder 24/7. Not sure about comps for the traveler. As a regular local, I eat free when and where I want. Food quality is mundane. The dd game has become over time unplayable and the rumor is it's about to become more so. DD is $25 min. Nice facility and mostly decent personnel. The players are generally uninformed. Some get blustery when "the flow" of the cards is changed. A smoke free section opens at 11AM but the boat is pretty smokey overall.

> I don't know if I agree with all that. I'm
> sure you can find games all over the country
> that are typically better than the
> Midwestern games. But you can find a lot
> more that are worse! I've played up in
> Michigan, Escanaba and all the other nearby
> places, and I'll take those Indian games
> over anything in AC or the Northeast US. Low
> limits, usually uncrowded, and virtually no
> heat compared to Nevada. The only places
> I've ever been booted out of were in Nevada
> and I've played maybe 10% of my BJ there.

> Maybe it's because I'm a new counter and I
> don't remember BJ "the way it used to
> be". 3:2 SD on the Strip was long, long
> gone when I started. So I don't know, for my
> style of play I find the Midwestern type
> games very playable.