scobee 1: Over heard dealer's comment at Harrah's

[scobee 1]

Ouchez,

Great to hear you are concerned about security. One of my good friends in this 'profession' is a security specialist, and has advised me on several occasions about current trends in his field. I am very conscious about discretion and detail, and only yesterday requested a poster take down his post on another site. Spies are everywhere, but especially on free pages. Stanford Wong has recently extrapolated the outcome of having 1000 members who are 99.9% certain not be casino spies. The odds are only 37% that the site will be spy-free.

I don't think you will find any cats still in the bag near your polar regions. Some former red chip midwest posters who shall remain nameless have already shared way too much information over the past year.

When I suggested you ask C about his motivation, this was not a rhetorical response. I wouldn't mind hearing it, although it is not of great importance to me personally. Ask him yourself, and we shall all read his response. I would never put him on the spot like that, but I lack your motivation.

On another topic.... discard trays. No big deal for unbalanced counts. Irritating but not a show-stopper for balanced counts. And as another poster has said...these devices tend to lull the casino into a sense of false security. I have seen such evidence already. False security is a topic you may know something about.....

Hey, I'll give your best to Michigander this weekend. Maybe he can email you a map so you can find your way from the polar regions to the greatest of the Great Lakes.

All the best,
scobee

[Ouchez]

[Brick]

your quote,

"but I am bothered by the fact that he did seem to turn on his employer and reveal trade secrets pertaining to methods and operation that should have remained confidential."

Hope you dont lose any sleep over this,I sure wont. Then again this does not bother me at all,what does is, Cellini has provided inside information at S.I.N(Surveillance Information Network)meetings about how he views and handles the inner workings of card counters. Of course this may not bother you much as Cellini turning on his casino employer does.

Brick

> but I am bothered by the fact that he did
> seem to turn on his employer and reveal
> trade secrets pertaining to methods and
> operation that should have remained
> confidential.

> I value, above all, loyalty and integrity
> from those that I am associated with in my
> business and personal life.

> I also view their actions in regards to
> their relationships with others that may not
> be directly related to me in my judgement of
> their integrity.

> I hold the premise that what takes place in
> the business environ pertaining to
> confidential matters must remain
> confidential on a permanent basis.

> Once I lose that confidence in someone it
> can never be regained and I will always view
> them with suspicion, and they most likely
> will not even be aware of it.

> Thus I would think twice about Cellini being
> accepted into the rarified ranks of the
> 'Hoosier Hitmen.

> But, that is only my most humble of
> opinions.

[Ouchez]

> your quote,

> "but I am bothered by the fact that he
> did seem to turn on his employer and reveal
> trade secrets pertaining to methods and
> operation that should have remained
> confidential."

> Hope you dont lose any sleep over this,I
> sure wont. Then again this does not bother
> me at all,what does is, Cellini has provided
> inside information at S.I.N(Surveillance
> Information Network)meetings about how he
> views and handles the inner workings of card
> counters. Of course this may not bother you
> much as Cellini turning on his casino
> employer does.

> Brick

The S.I.N. meetings were part of his job, his...duty to his employer.

Nothing unethical there.

Why should that bother me?

After all is it not just part of the game that does add a little more spice and excitment, that which we all(or most of us) crave?

The cat and mouse game, sorta like playing cowboys and Indians as a child?

[Brick]

> The S.I.N. meetings were part of his job,
> his...duty to his employer.

Cellini shared information about his book(for card counters?) to S.I.N. There has been posters asking Cellini about the workings of S.I.N and what it stands for. After Cellini ignored these questions and did not reply, I decided to find out for myself just exactly what S.I.N. means and their purpose. It is a network of information(Surveillance Information Network) shared by surveillance employees who inform others about potential cheats,thieves,scams,teams,professional counters,etc...how and where they are operating,etc...Cellini happened to target the card counter.

While Cellini's book was in the making, he forwarded information about it to S.I.N.
This book is obviously trying to be marketed to casino employees as well.

> Nothing unethical there.

From your point of view,of course not. However from my point of view and other card counters, it is disturbing,get the drift?

> Why should that bother me?

Oh, I understand.

> After all is it not just part of the game
> that does add a little more spice and
> excitment, that which we all(or most of us)
> crave?

Well I guess it depends on what side of the tables you're on,no?

> The cat and mouse game, sorta like playing
> cowboys and Indians as a child?

Yes it is very fun to get a arrow right through your head when you was a child pretending...in casinos it's the real thing,no? Do you enjoy this,I dont?

Brick

[Adam N. Subtractum]

Brick, can you reveal your source for these accusations? From your post it seems like you recently didn't even know what SIN was, and all of the sudden now you've got an inside connect? Not doubting you at all, just looking for clarification. Thanks.

ANS

[Ouchez]

> While Cellini's book was in the making, he
> forwarded information about it to S.I.N.
> This book is obviously trying to be marketed
> to casino employees as well.

I would call that good marketing!

> Well I guess it depends on what side of the
> tables you're on,no?

From my side of the table I always hope I have a good view of a fine female dealers backside! Baby got back? I hope so.

> Yes it is very fun to get a arrow right
> through your head when you was a child
> pretending...in casinos it's the real
> thing,no? Do you enjoy this,I dont?

Ya, I enjoy it ALL, in a big way, it's all good!

> Brick

[scobee 1]

1. Cellini spent 27 years in surveillance. I am sure he has many friends in that business after all this time. It would be ludicrous for him to disrespect these personal relationships by not discussing his book with them.

2. The truth is out there. Once a book has been published all it takes is a mastercard to get hold of it. Grosjean, Thorp, and Snyder all took secret information and made it public domain. It is hardly an indictment of character that he would get some pre-publication feedback from his former associates. If you remember the title is "Card Counter's Guide to Surveillance". It is not "Nobody can read this but card counters." I am sure that part of the targeted audience are members of the SIN. (interesting acronym, by the way..) How many books do you think he will sell at $100 to a small card counting community who are notoriously cheap? How hard is it to get the book now if you are a casino surveillance supervisor? I think part of the price point reflects a desire to sell the book to a wider audience. This certainly doesn't help us, but it is good business for Anthony Curtis.

3. Cellini did not invent SIN. I am sure he participated during his career as befitted his stature in his chosen profession. He obviously has different intentions now. C'est la vie.

4. In case you haven't noticed, Cellini is working his fingers to the nub making very useful contributions to the advantage player conspirators on Arnold's site. He also has done extensive research and reporting for the print version of Black Jack Forum. Let's try to judge him....if we must.... by his present works and not by a lifetime of doing the job well, he recently chose to retire from. If he hadn't been a sharp observer and tactician his book would be worthless.

If I were going to worry about Cellini, I would worry that he might close down his shop because no matter what he does to help the counting community, it will never be enough to impress those who insist he was once a 'surveillance supervisor.' Why don't we chill on the Cellini bashing until we have a good current reason to doubt his attack of conscience?

Just my opinion, I could be wrong... ( Adam will get this if no one else.)

Regards,
scobee

PS: My apologies to Parker, whom I promised to not follow this fork in the road to it's inevitable dead end.

[Adam N. Subtractum]

Couldn't have said it better myself, you bring up some very valid points. Let me add just a few of my own thoughts.

1. Arnold trusts him

2. I have some friends who have remained in "professions" that are not quite respectable (to say the least), but this does not change the fact that they are friends, and in fact they are the ones I happen to trust the most.

3. As Scobee pointed out, Cellini has gone out of his way to help the advantage player community with his tireless contributions to Arnold's forum, and if he has to be judged, he should be judged on these things, not unsubstantiated rumours. Now Brick, as I said before, I am not doubting you, but until I see evidence, what else can I call such an accusation? And of course, you have no obligation to reveal anything to me.

4. If you worked in a casino for 27 years wouldn't you want to stick it to 'em? Hell, most people I know want to f' a place over after workin there for only 2 weeks, lol.

5. Arnold trusts him.

Just my .02, take it for what its worth.

ANS

[Adam N. Subtractum]

[ET Fan]

... out to lunch.

> 1. Arnold trusts him.

Since when? If you think using a person to promote a free board and make money equate to trusting him, you're not ready to join the ranks of serious players.

> 3. As Scobee pointed out, Cellini has gone
> out of his way to help the advantage player
> community with his tireless contributions to
> Arnold's forum,

And that doesn't seem strange to you??? Uh, sure Beav, Eddie REALLY wants to make friends THIS time.

> and if he has to be judged,
> he should be judged on these things, not
> unsubstantiated rumours. Now Brick, as I
> said before, I am not doubting you, but
> until I see evidence ...

The man was (and is) TROLLING FOR PEOPLE'S EMAIL!! What more more evidence do you need? Oh, but that wasn't the REAL Cellini (wink, wink). If you just spent ten seconds thinking about it, you would see how ludicrous that claim was. Those posts were up there for WEEKS before being disputed. THE MAN IS A SURVEILANCE EXPERT, for crying out loud. Do I have to draw you a picture???

> 4. If you worked in a casino for 27 years
> wouldn't you want to stick it to 'em? Hell,
> most people I know want to f' a place over
> after workin there for only 2 weeks, lol.

After 2 weeks, sure. After 2-3 years, maybe. After 27 years, he's shown his stripes.

> 5. Arnold trusts him.

Wrong the first time.

Scobee: "He obviously has different intentions now." You believe this why, exactly?

Hasn't anyone around here ever heard of a Trojan horse?

ETF

[Adam N. Subtractum]

...I'm just a simple basic strategist who has a fetish for adding & subtracting stuff.

You're experienced insights are always welcome, thanks.

ANS

[T-Hopper]

> You're experienced insights

I can feel Don shudder from 2 time zones away.