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View Poll Results: Should casinos be able to bar APs?

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  • Yes, anyone they want to

    15 30.61%
  • Some APs, but not counters

    5 10.20%
  • No legal players

    25 51.02%
  • Ploppies should be banned

    4 8.16%
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Thread: Should casinos be able to bar players

  1. #1
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Should casinos be able to bar players

    This question has come up now and again since the Uston suit in Atlantic City. The Pennsylvania litigation brings it back to mind. I am less interested in the strictly legal question, and more interested in practical considerations. Is it better for APs if casinos have the right to unilaterally ban players. Or, would the ability to play in any casino bring about repercussions, like worse rules and flat-betting, that are worse than the threat of exclusion? That is, as Francis Bacon said, “The remedy is worse than the disease.”
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    If a law says they cannot ban APs, they will make the games unprofitable or very difficult for everyone. They can still flat bet or shuffle up on the APs that they cannot ban, effectively banning them anyway. So what's the point in an AP filing suit? All that AP needs to do is to cool it for a year or two then avoid the place that banned him. Why put your name and face out there for every casino in the country to see?

    If a physical assault was involved during the banning process, that is an entirely different matter.

  3. #3
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    I think if they couldn't ban you the games every game presented at the casino would be undesirable. I will not go into countermeasures but I could see this happening not based on some unidentified countermeasure. There are many different ways I could do this if I was a casino trying to bar without actually barring. Bar by making you not want to play. I doubt things would get better for us if a jurisdiction had to let you play. In Pa the rules are set by the state. They can be lobbied to be changed by the casinos on an individual basis but each casino must deal by the rules that Gaming passes for that casino. So far I believe there is no difference between the rules for BJ from 1 casino to another. That is not true with other games. Casinos have successfully submitted to deal different rules in some other table games.

    Anyway that just leaves a few things up to the casino that aren't rules. There are lots of ways to use them to make you not want to play. As long as the casinos aren't crazy about using bannings I don't see a problem with them doing so. It comes down to the lesser of 2 evils. If they make card counting unprofitable I will simply find another edge. The other edges available make the edge from card counting look trivial and are much harder to damn near impossible for the casino to detect. You would get many to give up AP but the ones that switched to a much much higher advantage AP technique would make up for maybe 10 to 20 APs giving up. Then I could win with no worry of detection. Right now there is a middle ground tat benefit both the casino and the AP.

    Most of the people I know that employ very high edge hard to detect techniques only do so because of the number of bannings rendering the slow grind of card counting impotent. Then I hear they have moved on to bigger and better things and they easily fly under the radar with a huge edge and a tiny N0 unheard of from counting. Obviously the combination of these 2 things make success easy. The lack of the casino to detect your play makes longevity automatic. I think the casino is aware that discouraging card counting on a global scale will result in losing far more money than allowing limited AP play using card counting. If they don't they don't understand what is going on in their casinos like they should.

  4. #4


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    I don't see how a casino can legally refuse service to a person now that a baker can no longer refuse service to a person.

  5. #5


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    Ill agree to let a caisno bar somebody from playing a game after it realises, the player has obtained an edge on the game they designed and chose to offer when....
    When grocery stores can preclude customers from shopping at their store for using coupons for free items they issued in the newspaper after they realise the customer only came to the store for the purpose of using the coupon.

    If they dont want people to beat their games, they shouldnt offer games that are beatable.

    The critical factor in all of this mess is KNOWLEDGE, there is knowledge that games are beatble by a certan method, and the casino lacking that knowledge offers the game. As the knowledge disseminates we should see less presence of beatable games, however, it seems some techniques are more involved than others and there will always seem to be a small number of players capitalizing on specialized knowledge.

  6. #6
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACFERRET View Post
    If they dont want people to beat their games, they shouldnt offer games that are beatable.
    Ironically, this is precisely what the PA casinos are asking to be allowed to do -- provide unbeatable games.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACFERRET View Post
    When grocery stores can preclude customers from shopping at their store for using coupons for free items they issued in the newspaper after they realise the customer only came to the store for the purpose of using the coupon.
    Grocery stores get reimbursed by the companies that the food was discounted for coupons so the store isn't giving away food. The store is simply being payed for the food by the company that provides its product, the food, to the store. When I was into couponing I got payed to leave the store with groceries and I would donate what I didn't want to homeless shelters.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Grocery stores get reimbursed by the companies that the food was discounted for coupons so the store isn't giving away food.
    That's true of manufacturer's coupons, but they don't get reimbursed when they offer their own coupons for free items and don't get reimbursed for doubling them.
    What other businesses routinely ban customers?
    I only buy some products (like reams of paper from Staples) when they offer them for free or close to free (with rebates). They haven't banned me.
    Do Buffets ban overweight people?

    I don't believe games will suffer. Just look at LV. There are entire Strip casinos now offering 8D 6:5 BJ and they can ban players.
    The problem with casinos is they have a mindset that NOBODY has the right to beat them at their own game. Yet they will do whatever they can to take advantage of weak-willed, uneducated, and those with compulsive personality disorders, until they don't have a penny left to their name.
    Last edited by 21forme; 01-25-2015 at 11:42 AM. Reason: typo

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21gunsalute View Post
    I don't see how a casino can legally refuse service to a person now that a baker can no longer refuse service to a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    I only buy some products (like reams of paper from Staples) when they offer them for free or close to free (with rebates). They haven't banned me.
    Do Buffets ban overweight people?
    These are valid points, but to me it seems more related to a bar. A bar retains the right to refuse service to a patron, especially in the case of extreme inebriation, but not necessarily. Theoretically they could refuse you at their own discretion (It's a bit more complicated but stick with me). It's obviously not the exact same as a casino, but they are both "vices" so maybe that's why they're more similar than a casino and a buffet. But, just like a person probably could be kicked out of a buffet if he just sat there all day eating tons, I think practically it would be alright for a casino to ban a person/team who was taking them for hundreds of thousands. Low level counters, though, I don't really see the point in even banning them, as they're unlikely to make a huge impact, at least not in the short run.

    For an AP, he/she'd prefer no restrictions, but whether it's barring or flat betting doesn't seem to make a huge difference. Both more or less remove the advantage. From a legal standpoint it's probably safer to flat-bet someone than to boot them. I personally feel that we won't ever see a day when a counter is protected completely, but that's just my opinion, and things could change as all these cases go through and maybe reach the Supreme Court.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    What other business routinely ban customers?
    I only buy some products (like reams of paper from Staples) when they offer them for free or close to free (with rebates). They haven't banned me.
    Lots of other businesses have people that are denied service. I remember when we were fishing and a wicked storm was coming so we outran the storm to a waterfront restaurant to get some food and drink while we waited out the storm. We were barred from entry because we didn't have ties. They really just didn't want to serve us because we smelled like fish. We went out and talked about what to do and then went back to get entry again. They said we needed ties. We pointed out we were wearing ties. We had each removed a shoelace and used it as a bow tie. They knew they were not allowed to bar us any longer since we were wearing ties even if they didn't like them. They sat us in there outdoor dining section that was closed due to the storm. That was fine with us because it was under cover. We got our food and some drinks and when the storm blew over went back out and caught a bunch a lot more fish.

    I could give other examples but you make a somewhat valid point even if it doesn't cover all aspects of refusal of service. I just thought that story was entertaining enough to use as an example and also showed a parallel with the AP situation. Both you and the casino or in this case the restaurant have ideas of what is desired and what is acceptable. You want to be able to play or be served. The establishment wants to protect its profits from undesirable customers but will make compromises that get both parties what they want or need. If you get barred you couldn't find that middle ground where both the establishment and your needs overlapped. I guess if we just wanted food and drink we would have gotten it to go but we also wanted shelter. If the outdoor conditions didn't require shelter I doubt we would have been seated with the others dining outside. In the torrential downpour the outside dining had been closed. You force the casino let you have a seat and you won't be treated like every other customer just as we weren't with our shoe lace bow ties.
    Last edited by Three; 01-25-2015 at 12:05 PM.

  11. #11


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    Should casinos be able to bar players

    I think it's fair that casino's get to bar players. I'm going in there to take as much as possible no matter how big or small. I think it's wrong to not pay us if we are not breaking the law of course tho.


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    Last edited by BlackHead; 01-25-2015 at 12:43 PM.

  12. #12


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    A bar can put up a sign that says they reserve a right, but that is contingent upon them having that right in the first place.

    My objection is that... a casino bars a player because hes good at blackjack, and now he cant go eat at their buffet, go bowling in their bowling alley, shoot pool in their pool hall, buy a hotel room, ride their roller-coaster, see their live lion exhibit, buy lap dances in their strip club, see a concert in their theater, sing in their karaoke bar or participate in a plethora of other services all of which are available in casinos.

  13. #13


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    ^ Yep. That makes no sense to me. On my first backoff ever, I said I wanted to play some craps. (Sometimes I like to give up a little EV for some good old fashioned fun on the pass line.)

    They said "no table games"! It was bizarre. It was clear they didn't want me in the establishment at all, even if I wanted to just let off some steam on a game I couldn't beat!

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