Goals: Longveity vs Money

[KJ]

I am sure many of you heard RWM reference both smallcapgrowth and myself on GWAE as 'opposite' approaches to the game. SCG with the 'slash and burn' get the money approach, and myself more concerned with longevity and playing levels that are better tolerated.

I am wondering just where most of our membership falls in this topic? And I am not suggesting that either approach is better than the other. It has to do with what each individuals goals are. For instance, I have few other career options at this time and am looking to play for a few more years before I wear out my welcome. Others, want to get what they can, while they can.

[nicetrades200303]

I am not a full time pro; just a serious recreational counter. I don’t depend on counting as a source of income to pay for living expenses, as I have other sources of income.

I emulate your approach of longevity and grading each session in terms of ev accumulated. I travel to your home court to play once a month spreading to max of 2 x yellows.

[muckz]

I am sure many of you heard RWM reference both smallcapgrowth and myself on GWAE as 'opposite' approaches to the game. SCG with the 'slash and burn' get the money approach, and myself more concerned with longevity and playing levels that are better tolerated.

I am wondering just where most of our membership falls in this topic? And I am not suggesting that either approach is better than the other. It has to do with what each individuals goals are. For instance, I have few other career options at this time and am looking to play for a few more years before I wear out my welcome. Others, want to get what they can, while they can.

I have a few things that conflict with what I want to do and what I actually do.

Those being smaller bankroll and long distance between casino.

I do realize that I could be BO'd at my betting level. I also generally cannot utilize bet/play cover. So I have a couple different strategies I use for situations.
1. At high score games usually above 80 I am willing to play hit and run. Only if I believe I was noticed at all by any casino personnel. Otherwise I limit my play to a maximum of 4 hours with break/pit switch after hot shoes, even if they ended in a minimum bet.

2. At average games that are in between 40-80 score I would use hit/run if I resulted in a one shoe swing of more than 2x what I have bought in for. Otherwise, I will play a maximum of 4 hours with pit switch/break when I have ended a shoe with a max bet.

3. At terrible grinding games I blatantly disregard all preventative heat countermeasures and only leave if I have hit my goal or casino personnel have taken obvious interest in me.

At the end of the day, my priority is growing the bankroll and putting in enough hours to make it worthwhile. Longevity is on the back burner for the simple fact that longevity strategy is useless if I don't have the bankroll to support it.

[KJ]

In hindsight, the 'somewhere in between' choice seems like the obvious choice. But again, it's really all about each individual's goals and situation.

[White Guy]

If you travel I think you can have both.

My vote is for the middle ground.

Counting will always be around so there's no big hurry to get all the $$ really but I think for the big pain in the ass that it is and the headaches you have to make a certain amount per hr or its not worth it. If you want to go for the kill get a BP and do a spotter BP thing.

I think in some other forms of AP definitely going for the kill is the right move. I really regret not playing some things harder.

In Vegas it is virtually impossible to count at any stakes higher than what you do unless you stick around for only 1-2 weeks. Even at your stakes I am actually a little surprised you are still able to play a lot. Its a very sweaty town IMO and I still get backed off randomly for counting I did years ago, even fliered before as a counter just walking through a casino because someone apparently recognized me although I hadn't counted there in years. In the last couple of months they seem even more paranoid than ever.

If you don't mind my asking have you avoided being databased in your career as a counter? This is also a big factor.

Other towns aren't as bad IMO but you will still burn out pretty quick without travel.

There's counters who play at pretty high stakes and have for many years. The one thing they have in common is they all use new looks, travel a lot, and use aliases a lot plus Change their looks with their aliases. This is a big part of it.

I know other APs in LV who can still play in some places and have at high stakes for decades. The thing they have in common is they're smart and recognize when they shouldn't play and recognize what bosses might remember them and what places are just too sharp.

I counted at decent stakes and had no where near the heat issues some have but still more than others.

[RS]

I believe longevity is part of maximizing profits. You can't win if you can't play, and you can't play if you're not welcome.

[Goatlife]

...

[Gronbog]

I think that the answer must necessarily be that it depends.

Locally for me, there are only a few casinos within easy reach, so I need to make sure that I'm welcome there. At these places I focus on longevity. There are other destinations that I visit while travelling or on vacation, but only once or twice a year. I want to be welcome there but it would not be devastating to get backed off and there's a decent chance that I will be forgotten before I would normally go back. Lastly there are places that I know I will never return to.

I think you need to tailor your strategy to each casino and to each opportunity within each casino.

[bigplayer]

Aggressive play always gets the most money, but great games can be played more politely and still be great. Bad games cannot be played politely. You still have to tailor everything to the casino and time of day to get the best mix of EV and time at tables between backoffs.

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[Freightman]

The 2 questions I ask myself are
1. What spread do I need to make money
2. What spread can I get away with

Supplementary issues are
1. Home based where longevity is an issue. I have a local mediocre game which tolerates my action. I make sure not to over abuse it.
2. If out of town, if game is shitty, are other more playable games readily available.If better games are not available, and if the shitty game is beatable, my spread will be pretty rude.

[KJ]

...

OK, hold on a minute here. There are no votes for the "slash and burn", max money approach, for which you were the inspiration of (also the approach of many successful teams). Either you (SCG) didn't vote, or you voted for something else. Perhaps you have changed your style of play in recent months, or perhaps you don't feel, RWM's mention of your approach and my follow-up here accurately describes your approach?? Hard to tell what your thoughts are from this very informative response.

[21forme]

The 2 questions I ask myself are
1. What spread do I need to make money
2. What spread can I get away with

And 3. Is this a place I'm not likely to visit again for a while, so if they toss me, I don't care.

[DM21]

Like most others, my spread and session time depends on many factors; locale, quality of game, business of the casino, other action being played, tolerance levels, etc. I feel that properly judging these considerations are part of the art of counting. Misjudging these factors will either lead to unnecessary back-offs or leaving money on the table.


I will tend to lean to the side of longevity when playing locally, a lot of the places that I play have long memories and staff that have been there forever. I will lean to the slash and burn side when traveling but I play really short sessions and keep on the move.

DM