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Thread: Ideas on cashing out from bankroll?

  1. #1


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    Ideas on cashing out from bankroll?

    I have a 10k bank this year and started off with some bigger losses that put me down a fair amount. Now after a series of gradual wins I am have clawed back up and with a bit win in the past week I am now up $1000. I don't intend to pull any money out yet.... but I am interested in knowing what eveyone's thought process is on when to take money out of the bank? What criteria do you use for when to collect on your success?

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by mushin View Post
    I am interested in knowing what eveyone's thought process is on when to take money out of the bank?
    I would recommend you stay with well over what you need in your pocket per visits/session opposed to having max bet out and your money is in the bank. I have 3/4 of my roll in the bank, and the rest is within reaching distance. If I hit below a certain amount I make withdrawls. If I reach my designated amount to make a deposit, I do so accordingly.

    Even if you don't plan on investing everything in your pocket, it's nice to have it with you. What if the advantageous situation presents itself and your pockets are down to nothing while in maxbet territory with lots of rounds left?
    There is no glory in practice, but without practice there is no glory . -Unknown

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by mushin View Post
    I have a 10k bank this year and started off with some bigger losses that put me down a fair amount. Now after a series of gradual wins I am have clawed back up and with a bit win in the past week I am now up $1000. I don't intend to pull any money out yet.... but I am interested in knowing what eveyone's thought process is on when to take money out of the bank? What criteria do you use for when to collect on your success?
    Every situation is different. I never took a dime till bank hit 30 k. Even then, didn't take much - didn't need the money for living expense. Now it is several multiples later.

    One important think to keep in mind - if you have calculated ror, those numbers are likely predicated on full reinvestment. Taking money from a limited bank could seriously skew those numbers. As well, since your likey goal is to find better games, you generally need a larger bank to play the higher stakes. On that basis, taking from your bank will limit your ability to achieve your goal.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangechip2 View Post
    I would recommend you stay with well over what you need in your pocket per visits/session opposed to having max bet out and your money is in the bank. I have 3/4 of my roll in the bank, and the rest is within reaching distance. If I hit below a certain amount I make withdrawls. If I reach my designated amount to make a deposit, I do so accordingly.

    Even if you don't plan on investing everything in your pocket, it's nice to have it with you. What if the advantageous situation presents itself and your pockets are down to nothing while in maxbet territory with lots of rounds left?
    Good advice but I don't think I was clear in my question. What I am interested in knowing more about the point at which you "take profits" or breaking your bank. For example.. If I were happy playing a 10k all the time I might consider collecting my winnings if I double my bank to 20k... or maybe at 5k. After all it is never any fun to work hard and never reward yourself..

    That time of thing.... what factors do you take into consideration? Granted this more of a personal preference but still it is good to know what more experienced people do.

  5. #5


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    Say you double your bank to 20k. Now you can make twice as much money each hour with the same risk. Maybe more if you can spread bigger or make the jump to higher mins/better conditions. Would you rather earn 2X what you earn now, or take some money out and have fun? People that can delay gratification are generally more successful in most things in life. In AP the difference is drastic.

    If your bankroll grows to the point where your ROR is minimal and you can't/won't raise your bets it is a good time to take money out. Otherwise you have to value money now a lot higher than money later to justify taking out any money.

  6. #6


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    Zergy,

    Very good information. Personally I am more of a... let me keep doubling my bank and I really like what you say. I think the key is exactly what you said: "If you bankroll grows to the point where you ROR is minimal and you can't/won't raise you bets.."

    With this approach someone can measure whether or not they are ready to jump to the next level of play and whether or not they are adequately bankrolled for their current level of play. If they do not have an acceptable ROR they should keep building their bank until they do. If they have an adequate bank they can then decide if they are ready to jump up their level of play which would result in recalculating their ROR. They can also determine if they can mentally handle the higher stakes.

    While we all should be able to keep emotion out of the decisions we make.... someone that is not familiar with betting black chips like they are red chips may have a hard time putting that amount of money on the table hand after hand. Thus you statement really clarifies things for nearly any player.

    If you are comfortable with your ROR and the stakes you play at you can start to draw on your winnings when above you bank. When you are not comfortable with your ROR or you want to increase the stakes you play at then keep building the bank.

    What I can see as another good approach when someone wants to increase their stakes but also wants to draw on their winnings would be to use a dual approach. Increase you stakes while also taking out some of the winnings. This will slow you bankroll increase but also provide a revenue stream for other ventures or enjoyment.

    As an example... once you are above your bank... you could take a 50/50 approach to any winnings or any other method you fee comfortable with. So if you win say $1000... you add $500 to your bank and take $500 for you. In thinking about this approach I also can see how this approach could be applied allocating funds for travel.

    Thanks Zergy

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by mushin View Post
    Ze

    As an example... once you are above your bank... you could take a 50/50 approach to any winnings or any other method you fee comfortable with. So if you win say $1000... you add $500 to your bank and take $500 for you. In thinking about this approach I also can see how this approach could be applied allocating funds for travel.

    Thanks Zergy
    And when you lose 1.000 will you have 500 on hand to add back to your bankroll? If not what you propose sounds like a sure way to shrink your BR over time.

    Of course this will depend on what you define as when "you are above your bank"
    Last edited by Goodboy; 04-25-2015 at 11:46 AM.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodboy View Post
    And when you lose 1.000 will you have 500 on hand to add back to your bankroll? If not what you propose sounds like a sure way to shrink your BR over time.

    Of course this will depend on what you define as when "you are above your bank"
    In reality it would be no different than if you only had your bankroll and you lost a session and went below. To clarify things a bit... when you are above your bankroll with your decided upon ROR you take some proceeds from wins. In my example it was 50%. However if you were to say loose and drop below you baseline bankroll you simply play the same as you would for any time you are trying to recover.

    Essentially if you BR is $10k and you drop below that you would not take any of your winnings until you recover back to 10k. Then once back you can start taking money again.

    50% for me would be too much cash to take out of a win.. I think 25% to 33% max would work better because it would build you BR faster and help to offset the loosing sessions.

  9. #9


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    I have never examined it via software or anything but once I decided that I am not interested in betting more and playing with a max bet of $150 on DD games ($25 min) or 6 deck games ($10 min.), I decided to keep a BR of $35k. When it goes over, I spend it and if it falls below, I first work it back up to $35k. Last year, I took about $8k over my $35k BR and traded up on my car. I have taken the wife out or gave some to my kid.

  10. #10
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    Mushin, to echo the point made earlier in this thread, if you are taking some money from your bankroll on wins, then the RoR number you calculated for your $10k bankroll is not accurate, because it assumes full reinvestment of winnings. If you are continuously recalculating your bets based on fractional Kelly betting, you will continue to expect long term bankroll growth as long as your withdrawals are less than your accumulated CE, although table minimums can prevent you from resizing on losses. If you withdraw more than your CE consistently, you will eventually go bust. I'd wait until your bets are high enough that you have room to resize down if necessary, preferably a couple of times, and then take a small portion of your CE, and only when winning. That's a conservative approach, but protecting your bankroll is the top priority. If you estimate how many hours you play per year and calculate your average annual EV per dollar in your bankroll, you might decide you'd rather let the money grow than withdraw it to spend.

  11. #11
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    Hi mushin

    I have taken a different approach. If you have built your bank up, there is always bank money sitting idle that is doing nothing and earning nothing if it is in a savings a/c etc. I look for anything I can buy that I can turn around and resell for a profit. If you have ready cash available, you will be surprised at how cheaply you can buy things to resell. There is always someone who has something they need to get rid of quickly and will cut the price just to make a quick sale. So, if you buy a cheap 4 wheeler, lawn equipment, trailer etc and turn a quick 2 or 3 hundred dollar profit from the resale, there is 2 or 3 hundred bucks that is not included in your ROR that is available for withdrawal and you haven't touched your bankroll.
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by mushin View Post
    In reality it would be no different than if you only had your bankroll and you lost a session and went below. To clarify things a bit... when you are above your bankroll with your decided upon ROR you take some proceeds from wins. In my example it was 50%. However if you were to say loose and drop below you baseline bankroll you simply play the same as you would for any time you are trying to recover.

    Essentially if you BR is $10k and you drop below that you would not take any of your winnings until you recover back to 10k. Then once back you can start taking money again.

    50% for me would be too much cash to take out of a win.. I think 25% to 33% max would work better because it would build you BR faster and help to offset the loosing sessions.
    While I don't see anything wrong with not paying yourself if you're below expectation, I think there's a very dangerous slippery slope in your thinking. Never should how much you take out be based on your actual results (the magnitude in particular). If you tell yourself 'if I'm below expectation I won't take anything, if I'm above then I'll take 25% of what I'm either up total or above expectation'. Doing either, by total win or just win less expectation, is essentially giving yourself a reverse-loss rebate (a win take for example).

    If you pay yourself a % of your total win and you rationalize it by thinking 'I'm just giving myself my winnings, my BR is the same as it was when I started, so it's ok' you're basically doing the same thing gamblers do when they tell themselves they can bet more because they're betting 'the casinos money'. That money is theirs and increasing their bets simply just raising the stakes and playing at a higher ROR for how much they planned to play for. Essentially positive progression betting. However, if your case, it's a hit to EV since you're paying yourself when you win, but no one is paying you when you win. You're basically cutting your upswings short, how do you think this affects BR growth if your down swings are now larger in relation to your up swings?

    Similarly, if you pay yourself a % of what you're above expectation, it has the same affect. The mechanism is the same, the cogs are just slightly different. You might rationalize it, in a more sophisticated sounding way 'oh, I only deserve to get EV, so if I win extra it's just a free bonus I can take out'. You're still taking money off the top of your up swing. Again, although your downswing is the same, it's larger in comparison to your up swing (the ratio of down to up is greater and less symmetrical). You'll have times when you end up below expectation for a period, and you need those up swings above expectation to fill in the 'dips', if you will, when you're below expectation.

    Remember Don Johnson? The casino was only giving back his losses (experience, rather than theoretical). Contrary to intuitions, loss rebates are a big deal, and he hit the casinos hard and fast. Don't hit yourself hard and fast.

    Anyways, enough with that. This post was deconstructive criticism. I'll talk a bit about how I would personally go at paying yourself from bank in the post below.

    EDIT: Lots of others have already mentioned this, but the affect from this reverse-loss rebate materializes as higher RoR (since it's regularly calculated assuming full re-investment). I would imagine that it can potentially occur as reduced EV, as either or degrees of both. However, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that, and possibly any and all loss is expressed as risk. Perhaps someone else can give it another look and tell me why that it can't be the case it'll show up as reduced EV.
    Last edited by NotEnoughHeat; 04-27-2015 at 07:20 AM.

  13. #13


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    From what I have read in the past about BR management (was in relation to sports betting, but it can apply to any form of AP), what people tend to do is pay themselves a flat salary based on their cumulative EV for that period. What percentage of your EV you cash out is a matter of balance between growth and pay (dividends, to borrow investing terminology). Notice how this is different than taking money that is above your starting amount or your expected amount. Here's an example,

    Ex. You play for 150 hours, and your net EV (cumulative expected win) is 1800. You decide that for every 150 hours you will pay yourself. You decide to pay yourself 800 each period.

    If you want to focus on more growth, pay yourself less. If you're already content with your bankroll size you can take more. Perhaps you decide you're already happy with how much you're making, but you decide you still want to grow your bankroll. You can still pay yourself a decent amount and just leave the rest towards growth. Money you earn either goes to growth or consumption. This applies to regular jobs as well. With a set amount of income you might ask yourself 'Do I want to have a very comfortable family of 3? or a cozy but humble family of 6?'

    I would also like to address what ZeeBabar did. I don't see anything wrong with what he did. The point of my post above was to illustrate the ramifications of basing your pay from the bank on experienced, rather than theoretical, results. I wasn't saying, don't do this. I was saying, if you decide to do this, know it's effects. If you aren't living on your bankroll (your sole or primary income will be from your bankroll) then it's probably fine to do this. Otherwise, what I mentioned in this post might be useful.

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