How much do casinos really care?

[Marlene]

KJ, thank you for this post. This is very helpful when we warn each other of where to avoid. I would say the same of Tucson casinos.

[MJGolf]

Lionman, I hope it's just memorable personality or look. Because so far, never appear to give me too much trouble. But this place has recently changed their rules (to the worse) as to limiting their ante to weekdays v. 24/7 as before. They actually told me that it seemed to drive away the players who knew little and didn't know how to play. They said that now it seemed they only had "good" players coming to that place. Weird, huh? But they also said they welcomed the play because it had been so much slower. They all groused about the "higher up muckety mucks" and that if they had their way, then they would change things to the better. I'm hoping for the best. To a tee........pit bosses and dealers that I played that night were not really happy with the management. This is a "keep your own tokes" place, so it has really limited their income apparently. But they still have GREAT rules when their is no ante.

So actually I'm a little at a loss to come to a real conclusion.

[Shadowless]

KJ, have you ever been backed off at an MGM or Caesar's property?

If so, do you have trouble playing at their other properties unrated?

[Cloudstreets7087]

Thanks for the info KJ! I must have been lucky. I won't go back to VF.

I also go to Parx in Bensalem and Sands in Bethlehem. Mostly Parx. I've extracted a good amount from them.

Now I'm not sure what to do. I thought I just wasn't taking enough for casinos to care. The side income has been awesome for me.

[Dieter]

Either you have a memorable personality or look, or I would suspect you are on their suspected skilled players list.

The suits and dealers really are just being sociable, in my case. Yes, I have a memorable personality and look.

I'm within their tolerance levels. And yes, it's only paranoia if they're not out to get you.

[Aslan]

Lionman, I hope it's just memorable personality or look. Because so far, never appear to give me too much trouble. But this place has recently changed their rules (to the worse) as to limiting their ante to weekdays v. 24/7 as before. They actually told me that it seemed to drive away the players who knew little and didn't know how to play. They said that now it seemed they only had "good" players coming to that place. Weird, huh? But they also said they welcomed the play because it had been so much slower. They all groused about the "higher up muckety mucks" and that if they had their way, then they would change things to the better. I'm hoping for the best. To a tee........pit bosses and dealers that I played that night were not really happy with the management. This is a "keep your own tokes" place, so it has really limited their income apparently. But they still have GREAT rules when their is no ante.

So actually I'm a little at a loss to come to a real conclusion.

Sometimes it's really hard to figure. Some people just have good recall and it makes them feel good to be able to show such recognition. Some people remember the names of everyone they meet-- not me-- I wish I could. But I do remember faces.

[Cloudstreets7087]

I guess I'm getting confused about what draws heat at a casino. I always min bet until the count starts getting good and I will ramp until I hit my max which lately has been $400. At VF, I was a little careless, but generally my first ramp goes to $50 and then upward from there. Is it the amount of money being bet that draws attention? Is it the timing of the bet? Is someone really watching and keeping count in a back room somewhere?

if it's just your winnings, then this little old Korean lady I saw last week should have been booted out of the casino. She had a single towering stack of green chips that she had to hold on to with two hands to keep it from tipping over and she was killing it. It was the funniest thing to watch. I guess she thought if she split up her stack she would lose her luck or something. Why wasn't she backed off? She was flat betting for the most part and playing the exact match bet every hand but she was using the casino like an ATM machine that day.

Well, I'm off to the casino now.

[Aslan]

I guess I'm getting confused about what draws heat at a casino. I always min bet until the count starts getting good and I will ramp until I hit my max which lately has been $400. At VF, I was a little careless, but generally my first ramp goes to $50 and then upward from there. Is it the amount of money being bet that draws attention? Is it the timing of the bet? Is someone really watching and keeping count in a back room somewhere?

if it's just your winnings, then this little old Korean lady I saw last week should have been booted out of the casino. She had a single towering stack of green chips that she had to hold on to with two hands to keep it from tipping over and she was killing it. It was the funniest thing to watch. I guess she thought if she split up her stack she would lose her luck or something. Why wasn't she backed off? She was flat betting for the most part and playing the exact match bet every hand but she was using the casino like an ATM machine that day.

Well, I'm off to the casino now.

If you are betting min bet for a long time, then suddenly begin to ramp up your bet, you might just catch the attention of the pit or the Eye. The Eye can always go back and review the game and see if you began to ramp up when the count turned positive. But there are lots of things that constitute "tells" to surveillance. Just put yourself in their position; what behavior would you find suspicious? For example, if you entered positive territory, did you lose your bet and then ramp up on your next bet? That is a definite tell. All shoe long you haven't chased a losing bet, but now suddenly in positive territory, you seem to be doing so.

[Orangechip2]

Any small place, it doesn't matter. If they've seen you a few times, they recognize you.

They may not track your play by your actual name, but if all the suits know who you are and know that they're referring to you when they say "Anonymous Player #378", it doesn't matter.

Just like I recognize all the dealers and all the suits and a fair number of the players when I go into a small place after a break of a few months, they recognize me. You should assume they recognize you, too.

They have a reasonable photo of you from the table, a clear photo of you from the cage and choke points, and assume if you've ever parked on property that they know your license plate number. It's OK not to volunteer your real name and address for them to add to your surveillance network dossier.

The most helpful post I've read since joining this site.

[Thirdbaseman]

I tried to send you a PM, cloudstreet, but I guess you are not a subscriber and unable to receive PM's.

Since I have to post in public, I will not ask you if this is Valley Forge (who also charges that $10 entry fee). But I am going to share my recent history and thoughts about VF anyway. If that is not who you are taking about, hopefully my 'alert' will benefit others.

I have had more issues with VF than I think any other casino. Heat, multiple backoffs, one weird situation where a 20 year old security 'boy' was assigned to follow me around (I presume to make sure I didn't play BJ). All this in about a dozen total visits to the place over 3 or 4 years.

On my latest trip, I was backed off at VF again almost immediately. In the following days I was prohibited from playing BJ and flat bet at two other eastern Pa casinos, of which I have played several times per year without incident. Upon returning home to Las Vegas, I was backed off 2 different casinos in my Las Vegas regular rotation within 3 days. There are only a handful of places I play rated in Las Vegas, and these just happened to be two of them. So my recent VF backoff, lead to a total of 5 backoffs in about a weeks time. This from a guy who averages about 6 per year. Of course VF being an independent casino has no ties to any of these other 4 casinos.

It is my conclusion, based on talking with other players on several sites, as well as my own experiences and talking with my friend who works the pit here in Vegas, that Valley forge is not only among the sweatiest places I have encountered in my career, right up there nose and nose with El cortez and South Point, but what makes VF really dangerous is they are a very active participant with OSN, which led to my problems returning home. I also believe they communicate with other PA casinos, via Fax (flyer suspected AP's), even though they have no affiliation with them (shades of Reno casinos).

Did I mention that Valley forge is dangerous? They are now out of my out-of town rotation, I guess one trip too late. My own fault. Just want players to know that an issue with VF, doesn't necessarily mean an issue with JUST Valley Forge.

Thanks KJ. Very valuable information.

[NotEnoughHeat]

Btw, going to 10 to 200 isn't always a good idea. And you were gunna go 10 to 400 if you had the stacks!? I hope you know how reckless that is.

I've been shooting out 1-20 lately. I've gotten a few more looks, but I haven't been backed off in about 47 hours of play since I started. God, don't I wish they had 1-40 limits where I'm at

[NotEnoughHeat]

Thanks for the info KJ! I must have been lucky. I won't go back to VF.

I also go to Parx in Bensalem and Sands in Bethlehem. Mostly Parx. I've extracted a good amount from them.

Now I'm not sure what to do. I thought I just wasn't taking enough for casinos to care. The side income has been awesome for me.

Although I'm sure you're among friends, you never know who's watching from the shadows [insert ominous music]. However, in all seriousness, you should be careful with information that could be used to identify you. I'm sure it doesn't take much more than this information (the stores you frequent) for me to stop by those casinos and figure out exactly what you look like, your billing information, et cetera. It's usually not emphasized, and hopefully less common, but perhaps there are worse people than just casino intelligence that could take advantage of how loose you are with your identity.

You have a 20k bank? You carry 3-5k with you each trip? Save the muggers the trouble and just post your credit card info instead !

I would personally edit and either erase or substitute psuedonyms for the casino names. This is my fourth reference to information security in my posts today. Maybe I'm just tinfoil paranoid but I'll leave it up to you whether you think it's necessary.

EDIT: found some ominous music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjPAWbk5jKc

[moo321]

I would caution everyone in their understanding of heat. Almost no casinos don't care about card counting. If you were a known counter, there are few, if any, casinos that would tolerate you.

However, that can easily be confused with casinos that don't care to look for counters, or are too stupid to know how to look for counters.

Outside of Las Vegas, most casinos simply do not watch red chip action. And some do not watch any action. These are the places you want to play. For places that are looking, but may be too stupid, figure out what they are looking for and don't do it.

For example, I have played at a place that I know a bunch of people have been backed off. I know they have active surveillance. How? Effective, low-cost camo that struck at the heart of the "tells" they were looking for.