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Thread: When to not surrender for cover...

  1. #1


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    When to not surrender for cover...

    If you have late surrender available, do you surrender every time the index play tells you to or do you hold back on some plays for cover? If so, which ones and when? I always surrender 16 vs. 10, but am a bit apprehensive about surrendering a 13 or 14 vs a 10. Hard 17 vs. an Ace has me a little nervous as well.
    I would think that those listed in basic strategy would be more favorable to utilize than those that are not, but I have no idea how a pit thinks.
    I am aware and have read of some cover plays that do not involve surrender that are made in the name of cover, but I have not seen any that involve surrender. How do you all that have surrender games approach it?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Mickey's Avatar
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    Since I'm a low stakes player I will surrender every time I'm supposed to and will rely on "THE ACT" for the primary source of cover.

    Do you play high stakes?
    Last edited by Mickey; 03-01-2015 at 04:45 PM.

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    Since I'm a low stakes player I will surrender every time I'm supposed to and will rely on "THE ACT" for the primary source of cover.

    Do you play high stakes?
    No. But let's just say that where I play, any increase in my spread would not look like typical ploppy bets.
    Last edited by marriedputter; 03-01-2015 at 03:40 PM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Mickey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marriedputter View Post
    No. But let's just say that where I play, any increase in my spread would not look like typical ploppy bets.
    ...making "THE ACT" even MORE important (in my opinion)...

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    YOu certanily can pass on 17 v A because you're oing to have min bet out. Otherwise, unless you're playing black, do what you should do. Never back yourself off.

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    Senior Member Mickey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    YOu certanily can pass on 17 v A because you're oing to have min bet out.
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Why would he necessarily have min bet out during a 17 vs. A scenario? He could receive a hard 17 vs. A during high counts (w/ a big bet) as well.
    Last edited by Mickey; 03-01-2015 at 05:02 PM.

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    Senior Member bigplayer's Avatar
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    Surrender is usually correct when you have most of your money on the table, therefore to not surrender when it's called for is usually a huge mistake. If you're gonna err on the side of cover you should just surrender certain hands all the time according to a fixed strategy. (e.g., always surrender 16 vs 9 thru Ace, and 15 vs 10 and Ace)

  8. #8
    Senior Member Mickey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigplayer View Post
    If you're gonna err on the side of cover you should just surrender certain hands all the time according to a fixed strategy. (e.g., always surrender 16 vs 9 thru Ace, and 15 vs 10 and Ace)
    To bigplayer's point, Ian Andersen lays out a cover schedule for surrendering in Burning The Tables in Las Vegas (Chapter 8 called the "Crazy Surrender" technique). Have you read that chapter/book (although the Crazy Surrender strategy is more geared towards high stakes play to better justify the costs involved in those cover plays)?
    Last edited by Mickey; 03-01-2015 at 05:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Why would he necessarily have min bet out during a 17 vs. A scenario? He could receive a hard 17 vs. A during high counts (w/ a big bet) as well.
    As the deck gets more T rich the dealer busts the Ace more and surrender is no longer the correct play. That is usually when you have big bets out. For HILO you surrender if the count is less than +1 (H17). You would have a min bet out. Of course you make your bet and playing decision at separate times so the play may be made at a different count than the bet was made at. You may use an ace neutral count and have a big bet out due to the excess aces left rather than a high playing count. So your bet and the play are only somewhat related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by this
    Oops, my bad. I was thinking hitting 17 v A. As T3 pointed out, it's a reverse index, so still, a smallish bet will be in play when LS is appropriate.
    Last edited by 21forme; 03-01-2015 at 05:49 PM.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by bigplayer View Post
    Surrender is usually correct when you have most of your money on the table, therefore to not surrender when it's called for is usually a huge mistake. If you're gonna err on the side of cover you should just surrender certain hands all the time according to a fixed strategy. (e.g., always surrender 16 vs 9 thru Ace, and 15 vs 10 and Ace)
    Good grief. Why the heck didn't I think of that? That is so common sense that I can't believe that didn't occur to me.

    Thank you big player. That's definitely what I will do when I go back to that casino (I won't be there for a while due to the fact that I have taken quite a bit from them).

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    As the deck gets more T rich the dealer busts the Ace more and surrender is no longer the correct play. That is usually when you have big bets out. For HILO you surrender if the count is less than +1 (H17). You would have a min bet out. Of course you make your bet and playing decision at separate times so the play may be made at a different count than the bet was made at. You may use an ace neutral count and have a big bet out due to the excess aces left rather than a high playing count. So your bet and the play are only somewhat related.
    Tthree beat me to it Mickey. At high counts you would insure against the ace. If there isn't a 10 under there, the dealer can bust much easier. 17 may hold up, but only because busting is more likely and not because 17 is a good score against the dealer.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by marriedputter View Post
    If you have late surrender available, do you surrender every time the index play tells you to or do you hold back on some plays for cover? If so, which ones and when? I always surrender 16 vs. 10, but am a bit apprehensive about surrendering a 13 or 14 vs a 10. Hard 17 vs. an Ace has me a little nervous as well.
    I would think that those listed in basic strategy would be more favorable to utilize than those that are not, but I have no idea how a pit thinks.
    I am aware and have read of some cover plays that do not involve surrender that are made in the name of cover, but I have not seen any that involve surrender. How do you all that have surrender games approach it?
    Try this for cover:

    Surrender when the TC >= 0.5, else hit. Hit even though surrender is offered for TC <= 0.5.

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