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Thread: Attention, Signers for Slot Winnings over $1,200

  1. #14
    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    Excel is fine. A lot of these regs/cases were before spreadsheets became popular.
    And even with a journal, it may or may not be held sufficient depending on other evidence, such as receipts, bank statements, etc. The IRS is pretty much in the driver's seat on gambling winnings. A journal is only your word on it if not backed by other evidence, as a person might deliberately fudge his journal to produce losses (similar to the practice of rat-holing to keep the casino from knowing what you won or lost). If I were a bigtime gambler, I would certainly be aware of what I put in and took out of my bank accounts, as this may come into play to substantiate that real losses did actually occur. Again, IRS is in the driver's seat unless you have incontrovertible evidence, and I don't know what that would be. As a practical matter, I believe they usually accept a well kept journal, lack of proof notwithstanding.

    Dealing with IRS is never entirely predictable.
    Last edited by Aslan; 10-30-2014 at 09:40 AM.

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

  2. #15


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    Other than the moral consideration, do you advocate the keeping of a gambling journal for those who play unrated? What do you consider their risk or liability? On the moral side of the question, a person not keeping a journal can play out of a bankroll and know at the end of each year exactly how much he won or lost overall, and file his taxes accordingly. The IRS will not reject a payment of taxes on undocumented winnings.
    Aside from moral considerations, the law says that you need to keep a journal. So I think you should keep a journal, because the IRS has incredible powers to bust you for dodging taxes. Your chances of getting caught may not be high, but the consequences are very serious. Also, if you ever want to use that money, you can't if it isn't reported.

    The problem with the bankroll approach is the IRS can audit you and they will accept your income as valid, but invalidate all of your losing sessions.
    The Cash Cow.

  3. #16
    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    Aside from moral considerations, the law says that you need to keep a journal. So I think you should keep a journal, because the IRS has incredible powers to bust you for dodging taxes. Your chances of getting caught may not be high, but the consequences are very serious. Also, if you ever want to use that money, you can't if it isn't reported.

    The problem with the bankroll approach is the IRS can audit you and they will accept your income as valid, but invalidate all of your losing sessions.
    By income I meant an undocumented calculation of your NET income based on starting bankroll. Without a journal, no specific losses or gaims are documented, hence the INCOME they are accepting is already net of any losses you may have incurred. Do you know something I don't know in this?. If so I'd be interested in hearing it.

    The journal is needed to substantiate losses-- where there is no journal, there are no losses to substantiate. I know of no law requiring a journal to be kept.

    Now, if you fear they are following you and documenting your winnings by investigation, that's a different story. That might actually happen with a bigtime gambler, such as Phil Ivey.
    Last edited by Aslan; 10-30-2014 at 09:49 AM.

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

  4. #17


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    By income I meant an undocumented calculation of your NET income based on starting bankroll. Without a journal, no specific losses or gaims are documented, hence the INCOME they are accepting is already net of any losses you may have incurred. Do you know something I don't know in this?. If so I'd be interested in hearing it.

    The journal is needed to substantiate losses-- where there is no journal, there are no losses to substantiate. I know of no law requiring a journal to be kept.

    Now, if you fear they are following you and documenting your winnings by investigation, that's a different story. That might actually happen with a bigtime gambler, such as Phil Ivey.
    There are ways they could impute the income. They could pull your win/loss at a casino. They could look at CTRs, SARs or other reports. They could look at your bank records.
    The Cash Cow.

  5. #18
    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    There are ways they could impute the income. They could pull your win/loss at a casino. They could look at CTRs, SARs or other reports. They could look at your bank records.
    I earlier stipulated playing unrated, hence no win/loss statement. I do not, nor do I intend to, generate CTRs or SARs. For bigtime gamblers who often cross the line into reportable earnings, a journal is essential. I green chip and never come close to the dreaded CTR or SARs. Even my black chips friends don't hit it, but they are tempting fate. For any AP who also plays VP or slots, I recommend using a player's card for that alone (not table games) because your losses will be needed to help offset your gains. Unless you feel you will lose over a year's time, why have a journal for table games-- your wins will gobble up all your losses? If you use a bank account to manage your active, operating bankroll, you are not like any gambler that I know. Transportation of cash is about the only use I have for a bank account when it comes to gambling and there are ways to document that without it becoming termed "income." Where am I going wrong?

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

  6. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    Where am I going wrong?
    First of all, it's the law. That settles it for me as a tax professional and a Christian. Secondly ,the IRS has ways. And if they suspect you are under-reporting income, they can definitely bust you. Let me give you some examples of sticky situations:

    1. You rip a slot jackpot
    2. You get detained in a casino. Why do you have thousands of dollars on you? That's a civil forfeiture waiting to happen
    3. The IRS snatches your bank account for structuring
    4. You carry cash on a plane and end up in the back room at the airport
    5. You hit a bad beat jackpot on poker
    6. The police pull you over with cash
    7. The police raid your house (maybe it's the wrong house?) and find your cash hoard
    8. The IRS audits you
    The Cash Cow.

  7. #20
    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  8. #21
    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  9. #22
    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    First of all, it's the law. That settles it for me as a tax professional and a Christian. Secondly ,the IRS has ways. And if they suspect you are under-reporting income, they can definitely bust you. Let me give you some examples of sticky situations:

    1. You rip a slot jackpot
    2. You get detained in a casino. Why do you have thousands of dollars on you? That's a civil forfeiture waiting to happen
    3. The IRS snatches your bank account for structuring
    4. You carry cash on a plane and end up in the back room at the airport
    5. You hit a bad beat jackpot on poker
    6. The police pull you over with cash
    7. The police raid your house (maybe it's the wrong house?) and find your cash hoard
    8. The IRS audits you
    There is no law that says you must keep a journal when you gamble. The IRS merely suggests that a good way to protect yourself from your losses being disallowed is to keep a journal. The only thing that is against the law is not reporting your income.

    As a Christian, if I report the amount of my net winnings based on what my bankroll has increased to, I have done nothing wrong, period.

    Nothing on your list poses a problem. It would be different if we lived in a police state, in which case, a journal would do no good-- Take for example the marine detained in Mexico. All of your examples presuppose someone "hiding" money or unable to account for it. When your initial bankroll comes out of your bank account and you paid taxes on any additions to it, you have nothing to hide. All of that is documented automatically by the bank. Failure to pay taxes, well, that's another thing-- then you have plenty to worry about. And like I said before, your journal is still only your word for it. Additional evidence may be required, according to the IRS.

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

  10. #23
    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    Section 4 reads: The recordkeeping suggestions set forth above are intended as general guidelines to assist taxpayers in establishing their reportable gambling gains and deductible gambling losses.

    I suggest large gamblers and those who play rated follow them.

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

  11. #24


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    There is no law that says you must keep a journal when you gamble. The IRS merely suggests that a good way to protect yourself from your losses being disallowed is to keep a journal. The only thing that is against the law is not reporting your income.

    As a Christian, if I report the amount of my net winnings based on what my bankroll has increased to, I have done nothing wrong, period.

    Nothing on your list poses a problem. It would be different if we lived in a police state, in which case, a journal would do no good-- Take for example the marine detained in Mexico. All of your examples presuppose someone "hiding" money or unable to account for it. When your initial bankroll comes out of your bank account and you paid taxes on any additions to it, you have nothing to hide. All of that is documented automatically by the bank. Failure to pay taxes, well, that's another thing-- then you have plenty to worry about. And like I said before, your journal is still only your word for it. Additional evidence may be required, according to the IRS.
    You are legally required to keep records:

    26 U.S.C.A. § 6001:

    "Every person liable for any tax imposed by this title, or for the collection thereof, shall keep such records, render such statements, make such returns, and comply with such rules and regulations as the Secretary may from time to time prescribe"

    Anson v. Commissioner (1964):

    "...the privilege of original self-assessment accorded the taxpayer carries with it the burden of support through the maintenance of records which clearly and accurately reflect income"

    Netting your wins and losses is a material understatement of tax, because it will lower your AGI, and if you don't itemize, it will understate your liability by preserving your standard deduction. Understating AGI can lower your liability by affecting tax credits.
    The Cash Cow.

  12. #25
    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    You do not have to keep a journal. They will just tax your income and disallow your losses. Take your choice.
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  13. #26


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    I recall reading somewhere that win loss statements are considered accurate and arnt admissible to some degree for the purposes of documenting wins or losses.

    As in, you cant use a win loss statement to document your losses in a casino for tax purposes, so it woudl seem that they couldnt use them to document your wins.

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