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Thread: Disturbing video

  1. #66
    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJGolf View Post
    Don't even go there guys. Be reasonable. Odds are that there is a cartoon or pic of a gun with a "slash" through it. Reflecting no guns allowed on premises. Do you really want to argue this ticket with a cop? I doubt anyone is actually "confused" or mislead by what they mean. And I live in a very liberal jurisdiction regarding the carrying of weapons. You do have to have a license to carry (concealed or open) which means that you had to take a class AND in the class they inform you of the rules on firearms and where they are permitted. Don't be nonsensical.
    The "good catch" was my inept use of language to describe what I was trying to say. No doubt the sign on the door is clear as glass, and yes, I'm pretty sure there is a gun with slash through it. haha Don't worry, even if it were poorly worded, I would not take that to mean I had therefore a license to carry in that establishment. We would all know what it meant to say. I am a little surprised, and a bit embarrassed, though, that you thought either of us might be that stupid.

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

  2. #67


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    just want to point out historically one time out of the 7 times i have been backroomed, I managed to talk my way out of handcuffs and a backroom so it is possible.

    I agree, never give them the ID, just make them search you illegally like they claim they were going to do, obviously after advising them that the room is audio recorded, and that there search of you is unlawful, and maybe something related to their actions of searching you being the product of a request by the casino.

  3. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACFERRET View Post
    just want to point out historically one time out of the 8 times i have been backroomed, I managed to talk my way out of handcuffs and a backroom so it is possible.

    I agree, never give them the ID, just make them search you illegally like they claim they were going to do, obviously after advising them that the room is audio recorded, and that there search of you is unlawful, and maybe something related to their actions of searching you being the product of a request by the casino.
    Cant say I'm surprised by you being back roomed 8 times as you make it your goal in life to get a case.

  4. #69


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    Jet, I do not fish for cases, and i would respectfully request not to be labeled like that. I do however assert my rights to play games very strongly and accept no unlawful compromises while playing in the casino, especially if they interfere with my ability to cash chips or continue enjoying my evening out gaming. Once your in a backroom, you should be very aggressive about generating evidence for your future claim.

    Its worth noting that all but 1 of the detentions i experienced revolved around my refusal to show ID which seems to be the source of many other detentions as well, the casino wants to know who you are and players refuse to tell them. Simultaneously I have refused ID HUNDREDS of times while cashing out, or upon request by employees uneventfully. so the events are somewhat very uncommon.

    I think the single biggest source of the problem is that roaming security employees, who are trained in the realm of security, feel compelled to take the position of authority and make descisions on behalf of other departments that they arnt trained in or have any knowledge of the inner workings of and it leads to a lot of mistakes and unlawfull actions.

    If A player refuses to submit an ID at the cage, a security employee is likely completely unaware of title 31 requirments as the apply to casinos or in house policies or procedures with respect to collecting that information.

  5. #70
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    One problem is that security guards don't like anyone that is more intelligent than they. Which is a rather large set of people.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  6. #71
    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    The "good catch" was my inept use of language to describe what I was trying to say. No doubt the sign on the door is clear as glass, and yes, I'm pretty sure there is a gun with slash through it. haha Don't worry, even if it were poorly worded, I would not take that to mean I had therefore a license to carry in that establishment. We would all know what it meant to say. I am a little surprised, and a bit embarrassed, though, that you thought either of us might be that stupid.
    Aslan: Never called either of you stupid. You know far more than I about playing cards. However, this was a serious thread about the backrooming. It bothered me to see those videos. Having been in the legal industry in my first career, I know how far cops can go. I also know how to avoid trouble with them most times. I didn't want the discussion to get off topic about firearms. I just didn't want anyone to even think about trying to bring a firearm into an establishment that prohibited them. There are very, very MANY gun happy policemen. I would NOT want anyone here to take a chance or give them ANY opportunity to fire at a citizen rightfully bearing arms. There have been too many cases of guns being planted on someone shot; kids shot with toy guns; adults shot with fake weapons. If you were to carry a gun into an establishment and say, they saw it. Maybe it wasn't quite totally concealed. And they knew it was prohibited there. It's an excuse to them to draw weapons. I am MORE than serious about this topic and it was not meant to cast any aspersions upon your intelligence.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

  7. #72
    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    The question in my mind is, what is the right thing to do? If I refuse to go with security, and ask to leave, is my position safe? If they will not allow me to leave, and I ask them to call the police, is my position safe? I imagine I could speed dial 911 before they know what hit them. I don't care one whit about suing the casino; I just don't want to give up my ID. Is it a good idea to leave one's ID in the car? I don't want a lot of red neck reactions, just what is the best way to proceed under the law, and for protection from the law and the overreach of the casino.

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

  8. #73
    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    I just don't want to give up my ID. Is it a good idea to leave one's ID in the car? I don't want a lot of red neck reactions, just what is the best way to proceed under the law, and for protection from the law and the overreach of the casino.
    I would need to research this further BUT my understanding is NOT that you are required to have ID. You ARE required to identify yourself to police TRUTHFULLY. I think if you told authorities........not the security guards.......the correct name and address, there is nothing they could do to you. You could easily be escorted to your car to show your ID IF they questioned your veracity. But I haven't researched this area in awhile. Maybe that's a different topic and it would be a good one for Munch and Dancer to ask Nersesian.

    This is for identification purposes. NOT for cashing out or CTR reasons. Under the Patriot Act you are REQUIRED to show ID for certain financial transactions.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

  9. #74
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Very difficult questions as the U.S. alone has 52 sets of laws (not counting tribal areas and territories). And, cops don’t have law degrees anyhow. It also depends on your purpose. If your purpose is to create the conditions for a suit, I have no interest. Funny thing, another site posted today that I am litigious. As I have said before, I have never sued anyone in my life and hope to be able to say that on my deathbed. My point in any negative situation is always to extract myself reasonably quickly with the best possible result.

    Toward that end, I am always respectful in voice and action, if not in spirit. The good news is that these days you will probably be recorded. So, this is your chance to play to the tape, if that later matters. IMHO, suppress the “I have my rights” testosterone crap. Security guards don’t give a shit. Let them understand that you understand they’re just doing their jobs. Chat with them about the casino on the way to the backroom. If they remain aggressive, then insist on police presence. Then you will have a new pair of folks to chat with. Be careful of the word “constitution”. It may work in your favor if you have already established that you are cooperating and it is judiciously used. If they think you are not cooperating, the word will just piss them off more. Also, be slow to ask for a lawyer for the same reasons.

    As for giving up your id, IANAL and certainly don’t know the laws in all jurisdictions. Personally, I would politely resist as long as possible. The words I have used in the past are: “You don’t need that”. This isn’t exactly an affront or refusal.

    Attempt to negotiate or compromise your way out. Get what both parties want.

    All of this is just the way I handle things. Sort of a Gandhi method. But then, it took Gandhi took three decades to win independence.
    Last edited by Norm; 10-30-2014 at 06:45 PM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  10. #75
    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Very difficult questions as the U.S. alone has 52 sets of laws (not counting tribal areas and territories). And, cops don’t have law degrees anyhow. It also depends on your purpose. If your purpose is to create the conditions for a suit, I have no interest. Funny thing, another site posted today that I am litigious. As I have said before, I have never sued anyone in my life and hope to be able to say that on my deathbed. My point in any negative situation is always to extract myself reasonably quickly with the best possible result.

    Toward that end, I am always respectful in voice and action, if not in spirit. The good news is that these days you will probably be recorded. So, this is your chance to play to the tape, if that later matters. IMHO, suppress the “I have my rights” testosterone crap. Security guards don’t give a shit. Let them understand that you understand they’re just doing their jobs. Chat with them about the casino on the way to the backroom. If they remain aggressive, then insist on police presence. Then you will have a new pair of folks to chat with. Be careful of the word “constitution”. It may work in your favor if you have already established that you are cooperating and it is judiciously used. If they think you are not cooperating, the word will just piss them off more. Also, be slow to ask for a lawyer for the same reasons.

    As for giving up your id, IANAL and certainly don’t know the laws in all jurisdictions. Personally, I would politely resist as long as possible. The words I have used in the past are: “You don’t need that”. This isn’t exactly an affront or refusal.

    Attempt to negotiate or compromise your way out. Get what both parties want.

    All of this is just the way I handle things. Sort of a Gandhi method. But then, it took Gandhi took three decades to win independence.
    I definitely do not wish to be detained that long.

    I think next time I will leave my ID in the car, since I do need it for driving.

    "I don't seem to have it. I must have left it in my car."

    Bu regardless, the police might escort me to my car, check my ID, and then return to the casino and tell them my name. I can do nothing to stop that, even if it is illegal. What can you do?

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

  11. #76


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    Bu regardless, the police might escort me to my car, check my ID, and then return to the casino and tell them my name. I can do nothing to stop that, even if it is illegal. What can you do?
    Sue them

  12. #77
    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Sue them
    Sure. Legal expense, and what's the bottom line of a judgment against the police for telling the casino my name? Is it worth the hassle?

    "We thought the casino had a right to know the plaintiff's ID for purposes of a No Trespass action. We made a mistake, your honor."
    "And what kind of damages are you seeking, Plaintiff?"
    "Duh! Defamation of character. Invasion of privacy."
    "Well, I don't see how you have been defamed. The casino has the right to refuse service to anyone. However, your privacy was invaded. For that, you prevail. I award you the sum of $1.00 and I admonish the police to become familiar with the laws governing the rights of citizens to refuse the showing of an ID when they are not involved in a criminal case, or suspected of criminal activity. Case dismissed. See the bailiff for payment of fine and collection of award. Next case!"

    Imaginary, I know. But that's a likely outcome.

    The unlawful detention by casino is another matter. Maybe I am awarded $500 and instructed not to enter the premises again. Meanwhile, my name and picture is distributed coast to coast by a casino that does not like losing to an advantage cheat, I mean, player. But I really showed them not to mess with me!

    Maybe I am just a pessimist, 21, but I've seen stuff go down like this all the time. No court is going to be sympathetic with the outing of an advantage player. "You know you're not welcome there, but you go there anyway. Yes, you were legally wronged, but the casino has a right to protect itself even from legal activities. They have a right to refuse service."

    Give me a case with real defamation of character. That's different. You're not going to get a huge judgment for a casino trying to get your ID for purposes of a No Trespass against you.
    Last edited by Aslan; 10-31-2014 at 02:34 PM.

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

  13. #78
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Yeah, that’s really the crux of the matter. The Grosjean case was important because it damaged Griffin, and made casinos more wary of actions based on data from such organizations. But, individual suits against casinos probably don’t really bother them if they didn’t kill or castrate a player. And, suits against cops are damn difficult. Pick your battles well.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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