Very Skeptical

[MidwestTom]

MANY of You folks say a lot of stuff I personally don't agree with. For example I've seen someone start a thread and shortly after someone else will reply "don't mention specific stores/locations " .. I guess you all say this in fear that the store will read the posts ( or someone will report it to the property) and you believe that it would ultimately lead to good games vamoosing or the casino worsening the game at their property (like AC) due to decrease in revenue over months/years.

On another instance I read someone post something along the lines that he/she puts BJ games out of commission and that the he/she was a casinos "worse nightmare" because of their style of play.. And people criticized him saying they were the reason that all the good games are disappearing in US.. But yet the same people give a "newby" to the site, someone who has no clue what they are posting about in many discussions that I've read a very educated answer to anything they ask... This doesn't make sense to me..

If everyone wants good BJ games to last forever then why would you want to expand the knowledge of your colleagues on this site? Doesn't that go hand and hand with not mentioning a specific store/location? If everyone on here can eventually get their play to a level where they can sequentially beat the game and Norm's not lifetime banning people faster then new users are joining the forum ( as he shouldn't) then why share advice with anyone? Personally, I like when a user posts a specific state of interest or a specific store; In fact I always have to stop myself from asking questions on here that pertain to these subjects that I know many of you frown upon. Obviously, I'm not going to post about a specific store and visit that property same day.. But I'd still like to freely post and get you folks opinions without a conch..

All criticism is welcome, like i said, maybe I'm missing something... Personally, I don't care. I play a profitable game regardless and will continue to do so. I believe that the only posts that should be frowned upon are people advertising their materials for personal gain, or illegal play.. Anything other than that should be fair game for the forum.

-Tom

[Dog Hand]

<snip>If everyone wants good BJ games to last forever then why would you want to expand the knowledge of your colleagues on this site?<snip>

MidwestTom,

Pardon me for abridging your post, but I wanted to address this one question. Over the years I believe I have helped many posters on this and other sites, both in "public" and in "private". Do I do this because I am altruistic? Well, maybe a little ;-)

On the other hand, I have received some extremely valuable information about game conditions, promotions, tolerance levels, etc., that I would not have discovered on my own. Networking has also led to invitations to private boards where even more valuable information is exchanged. How do you think I came to receive these benefits?

Of course, in absolute numbers very few of the players I've assisted have actually reciprocated with valuable information, but you never know who will turn out to have that nugget of gold.

I've made some good friends in the blackjack world, and I've made a few dollars from another site thanks to my posts ;-)

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

[MidwestTom]

MidwestTom,

Pardon me for abridging your post, but I wanted to address this one question. Over the years I believe I have helped many posters on this and other sites, both in "public" and in "private". Do I do this because I am altruistic? Well, maybe a little ;-)

On the other hand, I have received some extremely valuable information about game conditions, promotions, tolerance levels, etc., that I would not have discovered on my own. Networking has also led to invitations to private boards where even more valuable information is exchanged. How do you think I came to receive these benefits?

Of course, in absolute numbers very few of the players I've assisted have actually reciprocated with valuable information, but you never know who will turn out to have that nugget of gold.

I've made some good friends in the blackjack world, and I've made a few dollars from another site thanks to my posts ;-)

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

Pretty sure I'm a "member" of the site that openly discusses heat, game conditions, tolerance etc.

But you see Dog Hand, I got my eyes on my own grass, & I'm not worried about who else's grass is growing if you know what I mean

Keep That In Mind,

Tom

[Three]

Most counters fail/ We hope they won't but them trying and failing does make casinos more tolerant. The issue of good games being killed is either alerting a casino to vulnerability or causing APs to descend on the game and some greedy types killing it by going way beyond casino tolerances. There is noting worse than having milked a great game for years the having some naive poster alert the masses to the opportunity and very quickly the game is gone. What happened? Most likely someone that is not interested in long term opportunity got greedy and took too much too fast. The proper mix of things to succeed in this endeavor is rare. I hope anyone I help can find that mix but the reality is the casino will make more off the one's that can't find it than they lose to the people that do find it. That is a big cash cow for a casino and those that take the chance of letting counters play until they are sure they are earners reap the benefit of the same. In turn you reap the benefit of increased tolerance. Setting it up so the greedy earner shows up will destroy the game and the casinos patience/tolerance for counters. Those that do succeed will usually clue you in. A network of APs can be a very useful tool. Great promotions are usually poorly advertised. I have only hit a few and they were all found via networking.

[moo321]

What a great question!

1. One of the most important factors for pros is protecting games. I tell people that I trust about games that I want to protect. But posting it on the internet leads to people spreading min/max, blatantly abusing promos, etc.

2. Sometimes casinos do read these sites. A few people here have had backoffs based on posts. Not a ton, but enough that you shouldn't be too specific here.

3. Describing tactics is not very dangerous. Describing vulnerabilities is more dangerous (casinos can realize they are vulnerable). Describing tells is extremely dangerous (it tells the casinos what to look for). Describing game protection is just insanity (the casinos will figure out HOW to protect the games). I respond to posts with increasing ire as they disclose this information. Grosjean once corrected me for posting vaguely about game protection, and I now realize how right he was.

[Bodarc]

And Grosjean is the one who wrote what????

[moo321]

And Grosjean is the one who wrote what????

The book on how to take advantage of information. Take a look at his book: he rarely talks about vulnerabilities (WHAT to look for), and I don't know if he ever talks about how to protect a game.

[MidwestTom]

Most counters fail/ We hope they won't but them trying and failing does make casinos more tolerant. The issue of good games being killed is either alerting a casino to vulnerability or causing APs to descend on the game and some greedy types killing it by going way beyond casino tolerances. There is noting worse than having milked a great game for years the having some naive poster alert the masses to the opportunity and very quickly the game is gone. What happened? Most likely someone that is not interested in long term opportunity got greedy and took too much too fast. The proper mix of things to succeed in this endeavor is rare. I hope anyone I help can find that mix but the reality is the casino will make more off the one's that can't find it than they lose to the people that do find it. That is a big cash cow for a casino and those that take the chance of letting counters play until they are sure they are earners reap the benefit of the same. In turn you reap the benefit of increased tolerance. Setting it up so the greedy earner shows up will destroy the game and the casinos patience/tolerance for counters. Those that do succeed will usually clue you in. A network of APs can be a very useful tool. Great promotions are usually poorly advertised. I have only hit a few and they were all found via networking.

I agree, about the part that you say you want to see people succeed in counting .. However, I'm not sure what you mean by " great promotions are usually poorly advertised". Can you go a little more into depth with what you mean by that? Are you talking on the lines of a good BJ game being poorly advertised/promoted via internet ? Or what? Please explain.

[bjarg]

However, I'm not sure what you mean by " great promotions are usually poorly advertised".

I think he's refering to promotions as in "ON NEW YEARS DAY CASINO X WILL PAY 2:1 ON ALL BLACKJACKS".

[MidwestTom]

What a great question!

1. One of the most important factors for pros is protecting games. I tell people that I trust about games that I want to protect. But posting it on the internet leads to people spreading min/max, blatantly abusing promos, etc.

2. Sometimes casinos do read these sites. A few people here have had backoffs based on posts. Not a ton, but enough that you shouldn't be too specific here.

3. Describing tactics is not very dangerous. Describing vulnerabilities is more dangerous (casinos can realize they are vulnerable). Describing tells is extremely dangerous (it tells the casinos what to look for). Describing game protection is just insanity (the casinos will figure out HOW to protect the games). I respond to posts with increasing ire as they disclose this information. Grosjean once corrected me for posting vaguely about game protection, and I now realize how right he was.

So in other words you see nothing wrong with someone posting something along the lines of "What are the rules at xx property?" and then someone replying "RSA2x, H17, No Surrender, 6D $25-500" etc. But you see everything wrong with someone posting "xxx property has a great 2D game. You CAN wong in & out because there IS mid shoe entry as well as RSA3x, S17, Insurance, 80% pen. and it's $5-1000".

If I comprehended your post correctly with the examples I gave above then I completely agree with you. But, if you play Pro ( for a living ) then I want to reiterate my initial question: Why would you want to share any ACCURATE information with me as far as tolerance, rules, min/max, heat, etc? I can tell you "Ok Thanks man, I'll be sure to play within the limits that the casino can stand without risk of a BO or ruining the game" but in all actuality MANY people will still over do it if the situation presents itself.

I preach longitivtiy because that is what matters most to me; Not quadrupling my initial BR in a ridiculously fast manor that risks immediate BO's.

[MidwestTom]

I think he's refering to promotions as in "ON NEW YEARS DAY CASINO X WILL PAY 2:1 ON ALL BLACKJACKS".

Thats what I originally thought but wasn't sure . But I agree, before asking anything on the forum or other sites I'll first pull up the stores website and check it for any information regarding the BJ game.

I've found that Buying a yearly casino guide is very helpful as well.

[Three]

Most promotions I have found like, BJ pays 2:1 or the sports book will give you $40 in free slot play each week that you bet $50 in the sports book (I loved this one. I usually won my sports bet and found a loose slot machine to play my free slot play through once and hit cashout. If it wasn't too crowded their games were great too.) etc. were not in any fliers or Emails or advertised at all. The way you found out was by showing up and reading their signs. One was one of the messages that flashed to cars under the welcome to the casino sign. Another was only advertised on a poster you had to walk by as you entered the casino. They don't want people who will show up just for a promo. They want the people that show up to be rewarded by the promo and get them to come back. Lesser promos are widely advertised. Like play and earn entries to a drawing this month and show up the day of the drawing and play all day and 5 winners each hour will win some free play and maybe some cash to the big winner in the last drawing. Just put your card into a slot machine to activate your entries before each hours drawing. They want people that will come just for these promos.

[Solo player]

So in other words you see nothing wrong with someone posting something along the lines of "What are the rules at xx property?" and then someone replying "RSA2x, H17, No Surrender, 6D $25-500" etc. But you see everything wrong with someone posting "xxx property has a great 2D game. You CAN wong in & out because there IS mid shoe entry as well as RSA3x, S17, Insurance, 80% pen. and it's $5-1000".

This kind of talk is so common among the "A" typical internet poster who thinks they have something to prove to others, that it will never end. It still does not make it right but it is what it is. I would say most casinos could care less about BJ conditions being posted on message boards. I mean really. Does a casino care about some rookie counter posting about BJ conditions in Bum F**k Egypt? Or even the Strip for that matter? If new players stick around long enough they learn to keep there mouth shut about games and just play. I would guess the biggest threat from posting about game conditions and especially promos comes from other hard core players. Serious players(Those that even take the time to read the boards) have the smarts to sift thru all the posts and find a good game here and there, that newbie or wanna be players don't have enough sense to keep quiet about. Many/most just don't realize a good game when they find one. Hence the reason for posting game conditions to begin with.

I will pose these questions just to stir things up. How many casino personnel do you think really read message boards such as this? How many care? How many will change the rules to there games? Or be on the lookout for that "nickel" counter? Those that are shaking in there shoes because some nickel or quarter player posted there BJ conditions on a message board are not worth paying to begin with. Are we in the 21st century? Pretty much all casinos in this day and age are well aware of card counting. And if you find one that isn't, then ya better put a zipper on your lips. IMHO.