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Thread: Pent Up Questions

  1. #1


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    Pent Up Questions

    Since I'm new to the forum, I have all of these questions backed-up. Answer one or all; the only rule is your reply must be thoughtful.


    1) How do the BJ gurus really make their money? I see this pattern where a guy claims to have made $$$ from playing BJ pro, retires, and is now training others how to play. I can't but help ask to the guru, if you are so good, then how come you're still not playing? Why do many of the retired gurus seems to go back to 9-5 jobs? Wasn't their winnings enough to keep them afloat?

    2) What's your experience of splitting 9/9 against dealer's 8 or 9? Now, I know the book says to split, but it certainly seems like every time I've done this, I end up with a worse hand, or busting. Your experience?

    3) What has playing BJ done for you? Has it allowed you to purchase a zippy sports car, pay off debts, or take an exotic vacation?

    4) What's your system? I can already anticipate this is a religious question, so I'm not looking for anyone to proselytize their point of view, but I'm just curious. For me, I'm working on Hi/Lo lite. When I saw how this is simpler than Hi/Lo, with no statistical decrease in payout, the Hi/Lo list just made sense to me, and I'm curious if anyone else has come to the same conclusion?

    5) How long do you play per session? I've heard some people say they only play for one hour at a time, for fear of raising undesirable attention. Then, I've heard other chaps say how they'll just play all weekend at the same place.

    6) Do you look for dealer tells, to try to better guess the hole card?

    7) Have you even been on a team?

    8) Have you seen any factors of how some knobs remain knobs, while others turn the page to becoming respectable? This is a path that's been traveled a zillion times before: someone sees the movie "21", is lured to the idea of money for nothing, and starts to study and play BJ. I'd think about 98% of these folks crash-and-burn. So, what's the secret sauce that causes the remaining 2% to succeed?

    9) Do you provide solicited advice while playing? If the guy next to you asks, "Hey, what do you think I should do?", will you answer?

    10) Do you think Google Glasses could be an upcoming factor for BJ play? (Assume you already know http://www.geekwire.com/2013/countin...startup-world/)

  2. #2


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    1. They probably make money selling bogus materials. Many are legitimate though. You don't want to put all your eggs in one basket. In this case, relying on income from only card counting is a serious undertaking. Why not sell some books too in order to supplement income? It could also be that they are barred from most casinos for such exceptional play. So in short, it depends on the person. I prefer to diversify so I do not blame someone who wants so add income by teaching something that they love.
    2. Keep playing, and don't change your game. Anything can happen in the short run. I personally seem to do pretty well splitting nines. If it works for me, it will work for you sooner or later.
    3. Nope. Only the best of the best of the best can make a living doing it. It takes some serious money management to be able to get the bling with ONLY card counting. A sports car sounds out of the question to be able to purchase with only your EV, but mathematically it's possible if you have the bankroll and a casino that will tolerate you. The casino tolerating these huge bets is the part that sounds very unlikely to me.
    4. Hi/Lo is good enough for me. I have yet to see another count system that ups the EV enough to be worthwhile, but that's just me.
    5. Depends on the heat of the casino. I personally am one of those lucky ones that can play a while in the same place. However, I am always fully aware of their tolerance levels. When I reach a certain monetary gain, I go to another casino.
    6. No, but I only play where they have those little electronic card readers to tell them if they have blackjack or not. So they don't know what they have.
    7. No, and I probably never will. I'm more comfortable being a loner. I don't trust anybody enough for all sorts of reasons. All of those reasons are based upon lack of trust due to either a potential lack of ability and/or a lack of ethics.
    8. Practice, practice, practice. You must practice not just with counting, but with handling your emotions. You have to be prepared to get your posterior handed to you some days. Most can't handle those swings and do something stupid or simply decide it's not fun because of it and give up. "21" was a very unrealistic movie. The movie made it look like they win near constantly, which is unrealistic. There are also all sorts of other false information in there too along with some half-truths.
    9. I will do everything I can to act like I am ignorant. I use questions like this to make myself look like a ploppy. I might answer a question like "whatever you feel man" or "sometimes I hit it and sometimes I don't."
    10. No idea.

    Hope this helps!

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    Since I'm new to the forum, I have all of these questions backed-up. Answer one or all; the only rule is your reply must be thoughtful.


    1) How do the BJ gurus really make their money? I see this pattern where a guy claims to have made $$$ from playing BJ pro, retires, and is now training others how to play. I can't but help ask to the guru, if you are so good, then how come you're still not playing? Why do many of the retired gurus seems to go back to 9-5 jobs? Wasn't their winnings enough to keep them afloat?

    2) What's your experience of splitting 9/9 against dealer's 8 or 9? Now, I know the book says to split, but it certainly seems like every time I've done this, I end up with a worse hand, or busting. Your experience?

    3) What has playing BJ done for you? Has it allowed you to purchase a zippy sports car, pay off debts, or take an exotic vacation?

    4) What's your system? I can already anticipate this is a religious question, so I'm not looking for anyone to proselytize their point of view, but I'm just curious. For me, I'm working on Hi/Lo lite. When I saw how this is simpler than Hi/Lo, with no statistical decrease in payout, the Hi/Lo list just made sense to me, and I'm curious if anyone else has come to the same conclusion?

    5) How long do you play per session? I've heard some people say they only play for one hour at a time, for fear of raising undesirable attention. Then, I've heard other chaps say how they'll just play all weekend at the same place.

    6) Do you look for dealer tells, to try to better guess the hole card?

    7) Have you even been on a team?

    8) Have you seen any factors of how some knobs remain knobs, while others turn the page to becoming respectable? This is a path that's been traveled a zillion times before: someone sees the movie "21", is lured to the idea of money for nothing, and starts to study and play BJ. I'd think about 98% of these folks crash-and-burn. So, what's the secret sauce that causes the remaining 2% to succeed?

    9) Do you provide solicited advice while playing? If the guy next to you asks, "Hey, what do you think I should do?", will you answer?

    10) Do you think Google Glasses could be an upcoming factor for BJ play? (Assume you already know http://www.geekwire.com/2013/countin...startup-world/)
    my answers are as follows....

    1. Never been a full time pro but I suspect that some find other opportunities that pay equally well without the travel and the grind and more. These days, I doubt that anyone can make 6 figures consistently without heavy travel, motels and more.

    2. I know of no book that says you should split 9's against 8 or 9. Except in very very rare situations, it's a dumb play.

    3. For me, I upgraded from a 2010 to a 2014 sports car with my earnings this year. I only expect to play part time, hope to get $15-$20k a year and it may help with expenses and a vacation.

    4. I play Hi-Lo with I-18.

    5. Playing unrated, I play short sessions of under an hour. In my regular places where I play rated, the session may be 1-3 hours long but I leave anytime I am up between $200 and $500.

    6. No. Unless I see the hole card, I do not attempt to guess.

    7. No, not interested in being on a team.

    8. Size of BR, if it's replenishable and then your own mental make-up. First is whether you are lying to yourself that you are not addicted to the game. Then, the ROR you are playing with.

    9. No, I shrug, say something like it's your money, what does your gut tell you to do?

    10. It's asking for trouble.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    2. I know of no book that says you should split 9's against 8 or 9. Except in very very rare situations, it's a dumb play.
    .
    Wow. I've heard this at the tables. Never thought I would see this non-sense here.

    9,9 versus dealer 8 or 9 is a basic strategy split. Unless you have more info (like a dealer hole card), use basic strategy.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    6) Do you look for dealer tells, to try to better guess the hole card?
    In my experience, the dealers peek using a device and special cards. There is no opportunity for a dealer tell.

    Personally, I prefer the no-peek style cards vs the tech-art style cards (different styles of ace/face corner marks). Slight preference for light type devices over mirror devices; they seem to malfunction occasionally in my favor.

    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    8) Have you seen any factors of how some knobs remain knobs, while others turn the page to becoming respectable? This is a path that's been traveled a zillion times before: someone sees the movie "21", is lured to the idea of money for nothing, and starts to study and play BJ. I'd think about 98% of these folks crash-and-burn. So, what's the secret sauce that causes the remaining 2% to succeed?
    Adequate bankroll and not overbetting it. Many, many players start out underfunded, and overbet a replenishable bankroll trying to get a sizeable enough self-sustaining bankroll. Many, many players fail at this.

    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    9) Do you provide solicited advice while playing? If the guy next to you asks, "Hey, what do you think I should do?", will you answer?
    I couch my answers the same way the dealers are instructed to - "The book says... ... but it's your money, so play it how you think is best."

    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    10) Do you think Google Glasses could be an upcoming factor for BJ play? (Assume you already know http://www.geekwire.com/2013/countin...startup-world/)
    No. Anyplace I've seen insists on no electronic devices at the table while the game is in play. I wouldn't be surprised if a backcounter wearing a computer (like Glass) would be asked to remove it or move away from the table... too easy to do an updated style of a certain known attack.
    May the cards fall in your favor.

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    2. I know of no book that says you should split 9's against 8 or 9. Except in very very rare situations, it's a dumb play.

    Beat the Dealer, Edward O. Thorp, 1966. (Probably earlier versions too, but this is the one I have.)

    Knock-Out Blackjack, Vancura & Fuchs, 1998.

    Blackbelt in Blackjack, Arnold Snyder, 2005.

    These are just the ones within reach, there should be hundreds more.

    Heck, even the strategy card that the local place gives away (that I like to malign for the errors they treat as fact) gets splitting 9's right.
    May the cards fall in your favor.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Nikky_Flash's Avatar
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    1) sorry , I don't know
    2) I've always used Basic Strat from books and the linked site, but if some books Basic Strat say to stand , and ZeeBar has bought a new car standing , shoot , who am I to argue that? , here's Ken Smiths Site showing Basic Strat for 9,9 vs. Dealer 8 and 9 , http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php
    Stays the same for 2 Decks , and H17 or S17 ,
    3) one been playing in Casinos for about a year and a half with much of last winter with roads frozen solid making me miss more than 3 months of play, so with all the ups and downs of winning and losing , I'm happy to say I'm still in the "profit area" of a few hundred dollars, even after calculating travel costs.
    4) I use Norm's FELT system, (read his book, it's free) started with KO/TKO and didn't like it in real play or for adding extra index, (many players have helped me tremendously also, that's a big plus to have good help too)
    5) I started with short sessions of less than an hour , but if it's crowded and I feel comfortable I will do about 2 or 3 hours , I can see how being in Vegas , someone could play all day , it's really fun. If I get the chance I would like to go there for a long-while.
    6) Never tried to "guess" anything , I think most serious blackjack players like things crystal-clear-mathematics or nothing... that's how I am... if I could see the hole card , great... if not ... no use trying to be psychic-voodoo player.
    7) no.
    8) I see lots of people waste alot of money , to me it's alot of money , to them who knows , I'm the only one that matters when I play, and the dealer card.
    9) no, some people have made me laugh alot though, like in a good way, no ploppies have ever rarely bothered me, I like the real-old guys , like the 80-90 year old guys at the table... they say some cool shit ...
    10) many places have banned those glasses already, foolish to try devices at a casino... consequences outweigh any profit.
    Last edited by Nikky_Flash; 10-22-2014 at 02:40 PM.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    2. I know of no book that says you should split 9's against 8 or 9. Except in very very rare situations, it's a dumb play.
    Wow... cant say Im surprised though.

  9. #9
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    In future, probably a good idea to break up questions into smaller groupings. That allows longer conversations about the questions that merit longer discussions. I'll talk to one:

    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    Do you think Google Glasses could be an upcoming factor for BJ play?
    No. If you are going to use an illegal device, you probably shouldn't put it on your face.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    2. I know of no book that says you should split 9's against 8 or 9. Except in very very rare situations, it's a dumb play.
    You need to start reading something other than Dr. Seuss.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    1) How do the BJ gurus really make their money? I see this pattern where a guy claims to have made $$$ from playing BJ pro, retires, and is now training others how to play. I can't but help ask to the guru, if you are so good, then how come you're still not playing? Why do many of the retired gurus seems to go back to 9-5 jobs? Wasn't their winnings enough to keep them afloat?
    That is one way to make money and you don't have to worry about variance. There is an old saying, those that can do and those that can't teach.
    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    2) What's your experience of splitting 9/9 against dealer's 8 or 9? Now, I know the book says to split, but it certainly seems like every time I've done this, I end up with a worse hand, or busting. Your experience?
    It works out fine for me. 18 is a losing hand. Splitting almost doubles your EV. Stand EV 9.926 split EV is 19.34. Just trust the math.
    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    3) What has playing BJ done for you? Has it allowed you to purchase a zippy sports car, pay off debts, or take an exotic vacation?
    It has made me a retirement fund. Buying stuff with profits is for a very large BR. I have taken all my initial investment out of my BR and only take money out for car repairs and trip expenses.
    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    4) What's your system? I can already anticipate this is a religious question, so I'm not looking for anyone to proselytize their point of view, but I'm just curious. For me, I'm working on Hi/Lo lite. When I saw how this is simpler than Hi/Lo, with no statistical decrease in payout, the Hi/Lo list just made sense to me, and I'm curious if anyone else has come to the same conclusion?
    My system is one of my own making. Just know it is more complex than anything you will find available to the general public.
    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    5) How long do you play per session? I've heard some people say they only play for one hour at a time, for fear of raising undesirable attention. Then, I've heard other chaps say how they'll just play all weekend at the same place.
    I don't care to be specific about this. It depends on a lot of factors so there is no one size fits all answer but I often play long stints at the table.
    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    6) Do you look for dealer tells, to try to better guess the hole card?
    The dealer doesn't know what the hole card is. If he has a peak device it only tells him he has BJ or he doesn't have BJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    7) Have you even been on a team?
    I have been recruited but as yet have not played on a team.
    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    8) Have you seen any factors of how some knobs remain knobs, while others turn the page to becoming respectable? This is a path that's been traveled a zillion times before: someone sees the movie "21", is lured to the idea of money for nothing, and starts to study and play BJ. I'd think about 98% of these folks crash-and-burn. So, what's the secret sauce that causes the remaining 2% to succeed?
    Discipline, dedication ton practice and finding new ways to improve their game, being able to admit your limitations and make the most of your skill set. A desire and dedication to expand your skill set. The ability to manage risk and a BR.There is so much that has nothing to do with counting that are at least as important to success. Most just don't fall in the overlap of the sets.
    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    9) Do you provide solicited advice while playing? If the guy next to you asks, "Hey, what do you think I should do?", will you answer?
    Yes. It is funny how many ask and then don't listen follow your answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by timmbbo View Post
    10) Do you think Google Glasses could be an upcoming factor for BJ play? (Assume you already know http://www.geekwire.com/2013/countin...startup-world/)
    They are illegal in most jurisdictions. Using a device...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieter View Post
    Slight preference for light type devices over mirror devices; they seem to malfunction occasionally in my favor.
    Double exposure does make playing your hand easy. I have played with players that wouldn't alter strategy knowing both the dealers cards. I had the light go red and the dealers flipped a 6 for hard 16 rather than BJ. Everyone had stiffs except the guy at 3rd base. He had a total of 8. Everyone pleaded with him to double and he finally capitulated. He was pretty well sold on hitting until we explained the situation in detail.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    That is one way to make money and you don't have to worry about variance. There is an old saying, those that can do and those that can't teach.

    It works out fine for me. 18 is a losing hand. Splitting almost doubles your EV. Stand EV 9.926 split EV is 19.34. Just trust the math.
    It has made me a retirement fund. Buying stuff with profits is for a very large BR. I have taken all my initial investment out of my BR and only take money out for car repairs and trip expenses.


    My system is one of my own making. Just know it is more complex than anything you will find available to the general public.


    I don't care to be specific about this. It depends on a lot of factors so there is no one size fits all answer but I often play long stints at the table.

    The dealer doesn't know what the hole card is. If he has a peak device it only tells him he has BJ or he doesn't have BJ.

    I have been recruited but as yet have not played on a team.

    Discipline, dedication ton practice and finding new ways to improve their game, being able to admit your limitations and make the most of your skill set. A desire and dedication to expand your skill set. The ability to manage risk and a BR.There is so much that has nothing to do with counting that are at least as important to success. Most just don't fall in the overlap of the sets.

    Yes. It is funny how many ask and then don't listen follow your answer.


    They are illegal in most jurisdictions. Using a device...

    Mr. Patience...
    Blackjack will test your soul, your character, and the very fiber of your being.
    Don Schlesinger.

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