What do you think of my Wong?

**counter19** · 10-18-2014, 07:33 PM

Game: S17, 5/6 Decks dealt, No surrender, 1-15 spread when things are fine, 1-12 if with solid ramping if I believe I'm under suspicion, DAS, DOA
Other Game: H17, 5/6 Decks dealt, Late Surrender, 1-12 Spread, DAS, DOA

So I play in 4 or 5 casinos and I play rated. The pit all know me at each casino and I haven't had a problem (I can converse with them while counting, have good cover, and rathole carefully).
There are typically only 1-2 tables open with my preferred limits at each casino. I believe that Wonging in is a bit obvious when it is not crowded. It would look weird to not start each deck then come in later every shoe. On a Friday night though, there are much more tables open so I could probably get away with Wonging in just fine. However, I ALWAYS do Wong out when the TC goes to -2 (I have a few believable excuses to leave the tables and come back).
So basically, I don't Wong in, but I Wong out.

So, what do you think of my Wong?

KJ · 10-18-2014, 11:45 PM

Your wong out style is fine. Wonging out is also my preferred method of play, as it draws less attention than wonging in and still allows you to 'escape' at least a portion of the worst counts, which is a must for shoe games as far as I am concerned.

Now I am going to comment on two other parts of your game that caught my attention. One is the 'careful ratholing'. A lot of players tend to over do ratholing. Remember, all you need to do is somewhere between your EV and 2x EV. Just enough to make you look like a slight, long-term loser, rather than a slight long-term winner. You don't want to over do it, because if you get 'caught' (and you likely won't know if they suspect you of ratholing), they will make a note on your account and from that moment on, any time there are unaccounted for chips, they will be credited to you, which is the opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

Second thing is toning down your spread from 1-15 to 1-12 if you feel you are under suspicion. That's not all that much of a difference. If that slight decrease was enabling you to miss a key attention-drawing threshold, like $100 or $500, it might be worth something, otherwise, I suspect it isn't buying you anything at all, but that is subject to the individual tolerance level of the casino in question.

**Ouchez** · 10-19-2014, 03:52 AM

KJ is very correct in what he says. I believe I am aware, have an understanding of, of your playing environment and situation.

I would strongly recommend you totally forget about wonging in as this may be the one thing that will get you barred and end your sweet Gig, maybe even at all the places you play at in the area. I would also say that wonging out in excess can also be very dangerous and get you the boot. The casino I am sure knows what you are doing and will put up with you to a point, and no matter how great your personality is, the end result will be the same, you cannot play, major negatve ev and the end of a very good thing.

Also, learn to play in the negative counts using many negative indices, I have been playing much BJ this weekend and I never wong in or out, but my negative aggressive play, which I once wrote a pamphlet on called, "Beating The shoe In The Negative Counts", brought me good returns and allowed me to stick around for the Cut card which I controlled totally, and the results of the STing were amazing to say the least.

So, don't be greedy, go for longevity, and understand wonging will be looked at in time as an insult, by the casino, and will lead to your demise, in the situations you describe. Remember KJ has many, many casino's to choose from, you have just a few, your situation calls for different tactics and strategy.

O

**ZenKinG** · 10-19-2014, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Ouchez

KJ is very correct in what he says. I believe I am aware, have an understanding of, of your playing environment and situation.

I would strongly recommend you totally forget about wonging in as this may be the one thing that will get you barred and end your sweet Gig, maybe even at all the places you play at in the area. I would also say that wonging out in excess can also be very dangerous and get you the boot. The casino I am sure knows what you are doing and will put up with you to a point, and no matter how great your personality is, the end result will be the same, you cannot play, major negatve ev and the end of a very good thing.

Also, learn to play in the negative counts using many negative indices, I have been playing much BJ this weekend and I never wong in or out, but my negative aggressive play, which I once wrote a pamphlet on called, "Beating The shoe In The Negative Counts", brought me good returns and allowed me to stick around for the Cut card which I controlled totally, and the results of the STing were amazing to say the least.

So, don't be greedy, go for longevity, and understand wonging will be looked at in time as an insult, by the casino, and will lead to your demise, in the situations you describe. Remember KJ has many, many casino's to choose from, you have just a few, your situation calls for different tactics and strategy.

O

I disagree, one can get away with wonging in and out if done correctly. What do I mean by correctly? Having at least 5-6 casinos where you play at. That's 15-18 shifts you can rotate consistently. Keep those sessions to no more than 3 hours and put an image in their head from the very BEGINNING that you dont know what you're doing and you're just a basic strategy degenerate as well as dressing the part to an image that makes you look no where like an AP.

I have many ideas but I wont share them here. It's all about putting an image in every single pit bosses head right off the bat that won't make them think twice about you. Mix up the 15-18 shifts, log any heat or what happened in those periods in a notepad, keep the session to no more than 3 hours, have a great act, put an image(what you wear and how you play) in their head you're a novice.

So many more subtle things you can do, that I wont share here. The point is, if you can combine all of this, you will be able to get away with it for a while. The trick is to log every single thing(pit boss reaction, spread, what caused heat) on every trip and mix it up to the point where you don't see the same crew more than once a month. Add to that, that you will only be staying a short time frame and doing everything I mentioned, you should be able to avoid any scruitiny.

**Jabberwocky** · 10-19-2014, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by ZenKinG

I disagree, one can get away with wonging in and out if done correctly. What do I mean by correctly? Having at least 5-6 casinos where you play at. That's 15-18 shifts you can rotate consistently. Keep those sessions to no more than 3 hours and put an image in their head from the very BEGINNING that you dont know what you're doing and you're just a basic strategy degenerate as well as dressing the part to an image that makes you look no where like an AP.

I have many ideas but I wont share them here. It's all about putting an image in every single pit bosses head right off the bat that won't make them think twice about you. Mix up the 15-18 shifts, log any heat or what happened in those periods in a notepad, keep the session to no more than 3 hours, have a great act, put an image(what you wear and how you play) in their head you're a novice.

So many more subtle things you can do, that I wont share here. The point is, if you can combine all of this, you will be able to get away with it for a while. The trick is to log every single thing(pit boss reaction, spread, what caused heat) on every trip and mix it up to the point where you don't see the same crew more than once a month. Add to that, that you will only be staying a short time frame and doing everything I mentioned, you should be able to avoid any scruitiny.

Play in stores that are heat free-no matter what you do. I have only a few of those and they are great games but I have to travel a bit. Otherwise I play poker.

KJ · 10-19-2014, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ouchez

which I once wrote a pamphlet on called, "Beating The shoe In The Negative Counts"

Nice. I am very interested in reading this pamphlet and your thoughts on the subject. Is there a way for me to do so?

**muckz** · 10-19-2014, 12:31 PM

Maybe I'm just not quite getting it. In most cases I (including this one) "aggressive" wong outs are inferior in every aspect compared to play-all.

**muckz** · 10-19-2014, 12:44 PM

Maybe not every aspect,

If you are able to do the KJ method then you are technically WiWo with a delayed start. This is probably heat reducing or at least buying you a lot of time if the casino relies on eits and technology.

If you need to Wong to get a higher table minimum with playable conditions.

**Ouchez** · 10-20-2014, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by KJ

Nice. I am very interested in reading this pamphlet and your thoughts on the subject. Is there a way for me to do so?

KJ,

There was a deluxe leather bound, signed and numbered, copy on Craigslist a few years ago that went for $300.

Best,
O

**ZeeBabar** · 10-20-2014, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by ZenKinG

I disagree, one can get away with wonging in and out if done correctly. What do I mean by correctly? Having at least 5-6 casinos where you play at. That's 15-18 shifts you can rotate consistently. Keep those sessions to no more than 3 hours and put an image in their head from the very BEGINNING that you dont know what you're doing and you're just a basic strategy degenerate as well as dressing the part to an image that makes you look no where like an AP.

I have many ideas but I wont share them here. It's all about putting an image in every single pit bosses head right off the bat that won't make them think twice about you. Mix up the 15-18 shifts, log any heat or what happened in those periods in a notepad, keep the session to no more than 3 hours, have a great act, put an image(what you wear and how you play) in their head you're a novice.

So many more subtle things you can do, that I wont share here. The point is, if you can combine all of this, you will be able to get away with it for a while. The trick is to log every single thing(pit boss reaction, spread, what caused heat) on every trip and mix it up to the point where you don't see the same crew more than once a month. Add to that, that you will only be staying a short time frame and doing everything I mentioned, you should be able to avoid any scruitiny.

At places I play, and that is only 2-3 casinos that I am a regular at (and only play 1-2 hours a week), they know am as an old professor (close), who plays while the wife shops when we get to the city. They know me, smile and welcome me. I uses they also know I am a good player. Despite their comfort levels, they probably can see that I have winning sessions by a margin of 4-1 and that I am in the positive over the last year.

so, my question is at what level do they decide that they are wrong about me, that I may be an AP?

**counter19** · 10-21-2014, 05:21 PM

Thanks KJ. I have never known exactly how much to rathole. It's nice to see somebody quantify it.

I don't observe any heat whatsoever yet in any casino where I play. I've decided many times that wonging out means switching casinos. Nothing wrong with that.

**counter19** · 10-21-2014, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Ouchez

Also, learn to play in the negative counts using many negative indices, I have been playing much BJ this weekend and I never wong in or out, but my negative aggressive play, which I once wrote a pamphlet on called, "Beating The shoe In The Negative Counts", brought me good returns and allowed me to stick around for the Cut card which I controlled totally, and the results of the STing were amazing to say the least.

So, don't be greedy, go for longevity, and understand wonging will be looked at in time as an insult, by the casino, and will lead to your demise, in the situations you describe. Remember KJ has many, many casino's to choose from, you have just a few, your situation calls for different tactics and strategy.

O

Thank you. I do have many indices memorized, much beyond the Illustrious. I must admit though that I do not have many memorized in large negative numbers. It does sound like you understand my situation.

**counter19** · 10-21-2014, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by ZenKinG

I disagree, one can get away with wonging in and out if done correctly. What do I mean by correctly? Having at least 5-6 casinos where you play at. That's 15-18 shifts you can rotate consistently. Keep those sessions to no more than 3 hours and put an image in their head from the very BEGINNING that you dont know what you're doing and you're just a basic strategy degenerate as well as dressing the part to an image that makes you look no where like an AP.

Thanks Zen. Wonging out for me often involves going to other casinos so I am right there with you. I refuse to win too much on any one day at any one casino. I WILL however finish out any positive shoe.
I do dress the part. I feel ridiculous each time I go because I am more of a shirt and tie type of a person. I am very clean cut normally. I certainly dress differently for the casino. I blend in nicely and even make sure my vocabulary is limited.
As for the rotation of shifts, I can't really do that. The staff at the casinos is minuscule. They are going to see me. I just make sure not to win too much and rathole a little.