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Thread: Transitioning to counting

  1. #27


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardplayer View Post
    I'm sure theyres alot of variables involved in smallest reasonable initial bankroll but could you give an estimate in the ballpark assuming a 15-25 minbet?

    Is it worth it for me to put all in the work its going to take to go from where I am now(complete noob) to a competent profitable player if I only have 3 casinos in driving distance(closest one being an hr away)
    Welcome CardPlayer! As you guessed, there are a lot of factors that go into deciding the size of your bankroll. You will find lots of threads at this site on that subject. At a high level, some big factors include your risk tolerance, whether your bank is "replenishable" (for most beginner's who have a job, it usually is), and the kind of game you play. For a beginner, I would recommend playing $5-$10 minimum tables and $5K-$10K bank - but that's just a quick, off the cuff answer. Some people start with less, have high tolerance for Risk, and a day job that allows them to replenish every month. You want to find the lowest minimum tables while learning and building your bank. I would stay away from $15 and $25 min tables until you are really comfortable with counting, understand game selection, and have a bigger bank.

    Being an hour away from a casino is not necessarily a bad thing. It makes it harder to run into a store and throw money on the tables when you really should be practicing on your kitchen table (for free) or on software (like CVBJ). You might practice every day for two months before setting foot inside a casino.

  2. #28
    Senior Member Nikky_Flash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardplayer View Post
    Hey counting community! I'm a poker player who just got recommended KnockOut BJ as the best book on the subject, I'm about 40 pages in and enthusiastic. I currently have a very primitive understanding of basic strategy(basically same understanding as the majority i.e."10"rule), what I've learned from helpful dealers or fellow players so I know I have a lot of work to do before I can actually go hit the table with the skills necessary to profit. This thread alone was very insightful and I had a couple questions in response to

    First just wanted a second opinion on the book and also could you elaborate on the bolded. Like what I should and should not be reading? I'm sure theyres alot of variables involved in smallest reasonable initial bankroll but could you give an estimate in the ballpark assuming a 15-25 minbet?

    Is it worth it for me to put all in the work its going to take to go from where I am now(complete noob) to a competent profitable player if I only have 3 casinos in driving distance(closest one being an hr away)?

    All answers welcome
    First of all welcome , and you are asking right guy about the right count , Muckz knows his stuff well , I started with that book as well , and transitioned to real -life play using TKO during 2013 and 2014 ... so ; the true-counted form is nicknamed "TKO" , using the general outline demonstrated in the book , "Color of BlackJack" ...
    keep in mind , if you are playing blackjack with rules even slightly different from what is shown in KO- or Color of Blackjack , you need to rebuild what is shown for the numbers ... it's not too hard to do , but , you MUST do it ... The people writing the book KO-BlackJack , you gotta remember - are selling books, selling books , selling books... I'm sure they were thinking , "keep it simple, sell some books, sell many many books" . I highly doubt they had in mind , "develop groundbreaking system for serious math-minded people that they can use well, and tweak for their own games they find"

    with the help of some generous mentors, they have guided in me in a direction AWAY from that system for a number of reasons, I will start with :
    A couple things to keep in mind , is : They don't help you adjust what to do with games with more challenging rules... explained:

    1) if you are playing a game where the casino has an advantage of .64 over you , this is very realistic ; and where I'm at common; let's say its 6 deck , DAS, No resplit aces, no surrender , - (playing PERFECT basic strat, which most beginners don't ), you will NOT have an advantage when using what those books teach ... you will have an slight advantage perhaps at I believe a running count early in a 6 deck shoe would have to be 14 or 15 , - the respected book COB teaches RC=9 and to his credit he does mention if your rules aren't as good to use a higher count for it - but what counts? what rules? You NEED this information to play ... this is money, you are playing with money, so I would learn all I can.
    - towards the middle of the deck RC would have to crack 19 or 20. I never saw this mentioned in any of those books .... 5 decks in I believe it's 22 ...
    What does KO-BlackJack show you, for throwing big bets out ? , if I recall , they give you an "advantage" at around 16?
    Example again :
    So if you sit down at3:2BJ / 6deck DAS , split aces get one card , no resplit aces , no surrender . I believe that nets -.64 ish .
    RC=16 will give you a slight advantage early in a 6 deck shoe , maybe 1%? maybe 1.5 % if we are lucky for a time being ; then it fades after 3 decks have been dealt . so you reading KO-BlackJack might start throwing hundreds and hundreds of dollars at the felt, late in a game 5 decks in , thinking "I have a RC=16! I'm going to win !"
    after time and time NOT winning and actually losing you will be.. thinking " this system doesn't work I keep losing"
    I am here to save you from this pain.
    Do they teach you what to look for in rules - and how to calculate what your count needs to be for advantage calculation ? Not really ...

    2) even the respected COB, which Dravot obviously knows what he is doing, I respect him and his friends on this forum , I wish he would've taught the reader how to Exactly calculate your TC divide your true count in half to estimate your percent advantage , then subtract the casinos edge , whether it be .49 or .67 , from that percent ... I believe he does teach those things , here and there , but it seems spread out throughout the book and bad rules are shown with percentages , but , the reader isn't exactly shown how to calculate HIS/HER advantage against . Which is paramount to winning.
    I still am a beginner , but , I would have appreciated those concepts in those "easy style " counting books ,
    3) And how does one go about adding index plays to TKO or KO , ? the back of KO-blackjack has a Matrix ! with subpoints A, B, C, . have fun!
    4) the higher the count you need , the more TIME you need , higher counts = more rare ... so how long you going to bounce around table to table looking for that good shuffle? I did all this and wow , yeah it can be fun to win , but I'm doing this as an investment in my future ,not just for good times like the ploppies ... I believe money needs to be respected ,, So, yes this general system , TKO works ; you just need to adjust for every game and every situation different , I'm here to tell you , in a game taking -.64, you do NOT have advantage at RC=9 early, and you do not have an advantage at RC=16 4 or 5 decks in a 6deck shoe ... you would be having a pretty decent DIS-Advantage.

    Good cards to you , and make sure you are playing with winning mathematics, for yourself and your future.
    Last edited by Nikky_Flash; 07-31-2014 at 11:44 AM.
    “It seemed to me ... that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of detailed instructions for use in a package of toothpicks, was no longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane.

  3. #29


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikky_Flash View Post
    How do we know that's an authentic one-legged duck and not just an impostor duck showing off for internet-attention?
    Because it was me who snatched his leg out?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nikky_Flash View Post
    I also noticed that the guy who owns that YouTube channel is wearing a Skull mask ... coincidence perhaps ?
    HAHAHA That's true man, I hadn't noticed that! Well, I guess now you know what I had for dinner last night

    Quote Originally Posted by Exoter175 View Post
    14 seconds on a hand deck? I'd pay to see that vocalized. There's no way, in my mind, that someone can legitimately vocalize a hand deck down in 14 seconds. Computer deck, I can see pretty far down there, but a hand deck yourself? I don't believe it. Or maybe I'm just really slow with tossing the cards out there.
    What do you mean by "vocalized"? Do you say the RC out loud while counting down a deck of cards? That would definitely slow things down, but I not only don't see the usefulness of it but also think it is a very bad habit to have.
    I don't flip the cards like you, but I constantly get to 15 sec. I am sure I could get to 14 sec, but like Mcallister and you (and me!) agree, it is useless as far as real casino play is concerned.

    I've always enjoyed very much to count down an actual deck of cards, because I can have one with me all the time and do a little practice anywhere. The problem was that I quickly noticed it didn't relate too much to the game itself; I was getting good at it, but I would still have problems while practicing the game with CV. After studying different ways to count a deck, I ended up counting it two cards at a time, but tossing only one at a time at the table (I just don't have the manual ability to grab two cards at a time). So now I automatically count pairs of cards, what makes it much easier to scan the table, but I still find it very useful to count down decks of cards. It keeps you sharp, I guess.

    If I could flip two cards at a time, I am pretty sure I could go well below 14 sec. But as my father used to say every time I mentioned I wanted to buy a nice motorcycle "I don't need such public demonstrations of virility." HAHAHA

    Best!
    Life's true face is the skull.” - Nikos Kazantzakis

  4. #30


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierce View Post
    Haha ll take the bet if your offering?

    Daryl P could allegedly count a deck in 8 seconds, that was using a table spread as opposed to the method you describe. Like I say, how fast you can make your playing decisions is much more important. Counting becomes silly easy once you start grouping 4 cards together, means you only have to count 13 times as opposed to 52.
    Well shit, you could put out 26 cards into two sets and I'd be able to count it down in seconds. I'm talking about a 1 by 1 hand flip while vocalizing the RC. Low 20's, high teens I can see possible. Less than 15? I wouldn't believe it until I saw it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skull View Post
    What do you mean by "vocalized"? Do you say the RC out loud while counting down a deck of cards? That would definitely slow things down, but I not only don't see the usefulness of it but also think it is a very bad habit to have.
    I don't flip the cards like you, but I constantly get to 15 sec. I am sure I could get to 14 sec, but like Mcallister and you (and me!) agree, it is useless as far as real casino play is concerned.

    I've always enjoyed very much to count down an actual deck of cards, because I can have one with me all the time and do a little practice anywhere. The problem was that I quickly noticed it didn't relate too much to the game itself; I was getting good at it, but I would still have problems while practicing the game with CV. After studying different ways to count a deck, I ended up counting it two cards at a time, but tossing only one at a time at the table (I just don't have the manual ability to grab two cards at a time). So now I automatically count pairs of cards, what makes it much easier to scan the table, but I still find it very useful to count down decks of cards. It keeps you sharp, I guess.

    If I could flip two cards at a time, I am pretty sure I could go well below 14 sec. But as my father used to say every time I mentioned I wanted to buy a nice motorcycle "I don't need such public demonstrations of virility." HAHAHA

    Best!

    Yes, count out loud, as that's the only true way to validate the count. I could throw 52 cards out there very, very fast and say "Zero" and done, because I know the RC total of a deck, as we all know. I mainly do the one card flip and count in my head (not vocalize) because I want to be as honed as possible in a single card basis because I often encounter some VERY fast dealers, and I mean lightning quick. The kind you write to Ripley's Believe it or Not, and call the Guinness Book about. So when I see them heads up, I'm taking too much time to count "hands" or even when its 2 on 1, or it slows down the cornucopia that is the current HPH.

  5. #31


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    Quote Originally Posted by Exoter175 View Post
    Well shit, you could put out 26 cards into two sets and I'd be able to count it down in seconds. I'm talking about a 1 by 1 hand flip while vocalizing the RC. Low 20's, high teens I can see possible. Less than 15? I wouldn't believe it until I saw it.




    Yes, count out loud, as that's the only true way to validate the count. I could throw 52 cards out there very, very fast and say "Zero" and done, because I know the RC total of a deck, as we all know. I mainly do the one card flip and count in my head (not vocalize) because I want to be as honed as possible in a single card basis because I often encounter some VERY fast dealers, and I mean lightning quick. The kind you write to Ripley's Believe it or Not, and call the Guinness Book about. So when I see them heads up, I'm taking too much time to count "hands" or even when its 2 on 1, or it slows down the cornucopia that is the current HPH.
    No its not the only way to validate it. Take out three random cards and count down the deck, the count of the three cards will opposite your RC if you are correct. Repeat with as many cards taken out as you wish. Counting down a deck out loud is pointless really, It's slowing you down for no gain whatsoever. Plus the fact that counting down a deck card by card is inefficient anyway, you should be counting 2 at a time at least.
    But i'll say it again anyway, this is all trivial. Being able to make playing decisions quickly is much more valuable. In a real game you could count the cards a good 7 times before they get stuck in the discard tray.

  6. #32


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    Quote Originally Posted by Exoter175 View Post
    Yes, count out loud, as that's the only true way to validate the count.
    That's definitely not the only true way to validate the count. One of my criticisms/suggestions of CV counting drills (found in one previous thread of mine somewhere) was that you always knew the ending count, so it was almost like cheating. If the count was -6 by the end of the deck I could anticipate that low cards are coming and, as you said, I would know the end-count will be zero. So I asked Norm if there were some way of counting down a deck taken within a 6-deck shoe so that I couldn't possibly know the end count. Well, that's exactly what I do at home. ALL my decks are mixed up to form 6-deck shoes. From time to time I get a 52-card set and use it for practice. At least the first time I count the deck I believe you would agree it has no bias.
    Life's true face is the skull.” - Nikos Kazantzakis

  7. #33


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierce View Post
    No its not the only way to validate it. Take out three random cards and count down the deck, the count of the three cards will opposite your RC if you are correct. Repeat with as many cards taken out as you wish. Counting down a deck out loud is pointless really, It's slowing you down for no gain whatsoever. Plus the fact that counting down a deck card by card is inefficient anyway, you should be counting 2 at a time at least.
    But i'll say it again anyway, this is all trivial. Being able to make playing decisions quickly is much more valuable. In a real game you could count the cards a good 7 times before they get stuck in the discard tray.
    You'd want to replace those three you took out though, otherwise its not a full deck! But you are correct, that is another form of validation I suppose.

    I practice 1xflip mainly because a majority of my game is steered towards heads up play against fast dealers that I've scouted. And I don't mean fast, I mean, the fastest you've ever seen in your life, not just in cards coming out by shuffles, shoe changes, every aspect of the game, I have two specific dealers who are just terrifyingly fast, and HPH is like eleventybillion, and I find that sometimes I'm not nearly as accurate in 3+ card felt counts going this fast, as when I'm counting 1 by 1.

  8. #34


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    Quote Originally Posted by Intermediate View Post
    Welcome CardPlayer! As you guessed, there are a lot of factors that go into deciding the size of your bankroll. You will find lots of threads at this site on that subject. At a high level, some big factors include your risk tolerance, whether your bank is "replenishable" (for most beginner's who have a job, it usually is), and the kind of game you play. For a beginner, I would recommend playing $5-$10 minimum tables and $5K-$10K bank - but that's just a quick, off the cuff answer. Some people start with less, have high tolerance for Risk, and a day job that allows them to replenish every month. You want to find the lowest minimum tables while learning and building your bank. I would stay away from $15 and $25 min tables until you are really comfortable with counting, understand game selection, and have a bigger bank.

    Being an hour away from a casino is not necessarily a bad thing. It makes it harder to run into a store and throw money on the tables when you really should be practicing on your kitchen table (for free) or on software (like CVBJ). You might practice every day for two months before setting foot inside a casino.
    Thanks for the response especially the software to practice on. I def dont plan on playing any real bj until Im confident in my counting abilities and crushing on the software(which I can tell you will be way longer than 2 months due to life,work,poker, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikky_Flash View Post
    First of all welcome , and you are asking right guy about the right count , Muckz knows his stuff well , I started with that book as well , and transitioned to real -life play using TKO during 2013 and 2014 ... so ; the true-counted form is nicknamed "TKO" , using the general outline demonstrated in the book , "Color of BlackJack" ...
    keep in mind , if you are playing blackjack with rules even slightly different from what is shown in KO- or Color of Blackjack , you need to rebuild what is shown for the numbers ... it's not too hard to do , but , you MUST do it ... The people writing the book KO-BlackJack , you gotta remember - are selling books, selling books , selling books... I'm sure they were thinking , "keep it simple, sell some books, sell many many books" . I highly doubt they had in mind , "develop groundbreaking system for serious math-minded people that they can use well, and tweak for their own games they find"

    with the help of some generous mentors, they have guided in me in a direction AWAY from that system for a number of reasons, I will start with :
    A couple things to keep in mind , is : They don't help you adjust what to do with games with more challenging rules... explained:

    1) if you are playing a game where the casino has an advantage of .64 over you , this is very realistic ; and where I'm at common; let's say its 6 deck , DAS, No resplit aces, no surrender , - (playing PERFECT basic strat, which most beginners don't ), you will NOT have an advantage when using what those books teach ... you will have an slight advantage perhaps at I believe a running count early in a 6 deck shoe would have to be 14 or 15 , - the respected book COB teaches RC=9 and to his credit he does mention if your rules aren't as good to use a higher count for it - but what counts? what rules? You NEED this information to play ... this is money, you are playing with money, so I would learn all I can.
    - towards the middle of the deck RC would have to crack 19 or 20. I never saw this mentioned in any of those books .... 5 decks in I believe it's 22 ...
    What does KO-BlackJack show you, for throwing big bets out ? , if I recall , they give you an "advantage" at around 16?
    Example again :
    So if you sit down at3:2BJ / 6deck DAS , split aces get one card , no resplit aces , no surrender . I believe that nets -.64 ish .
    RC=16 will give you a slight advantage early in a 6 deck shoe , maybe 1%? maybe 1.5 % if we are lucky for a time being ; then it fades after 3 decks have been dealt . so you reading KO-BlackJack might start throwing hundreds and hundreds of dollars at the felt, late in a game 5 decks in , thinking "I have a RC=16! I'm going to win !"
    after time and time NOT winning and actually losing you will be.. thinking " this system doesn't work I keep losing"
    I am here to save you from this pain.
    Do they teach you what to look for in rules - and how to calculate what your count needs to be for advantage calculation ? Not really ...

    2) even the respected COB, which Dravot obviously knows what he is doing, I respect him and his friends on this forum , I wish he would've taught the reader how to Exactly calculate your TC divide your true count in half to estimate your percent advantage , then subtract the casinos edge , whether it be .49 or .67 , from that percent ... I believe he does teach those things , here and there , but it seems spread out throughout the book and bad rules are shown with percentages , but , the reader isn't exactly shown how to calculate HIS/HER advantage against . Which is paramount to winning.
    I still am a beginner , but , I would have appreciated those concepts in those "easy style " counting books ,
    3) And how does one go about adding index plays to TKO or KO , ? the back of KO-blackjack has a Matrix ! with subpoints A, B, C, . have fun!
    4) the higher the count you need , the more TIME you need , higher counts = more rare ... so how long you going to bounce around table to table looking for that good shuffle? I did all this and wow , yeah it can be fun to win , but I'm doing this as an investment in my future ,not just for good times like the ploppies ... I believe money needs to be respected ,, So, yes this general system , TKO works ; you just need to adjust for every game and every situation different , I'm here to tell you , in a game taking -.64, you do NOT have advantage at RC=9 early, and you do not have an advantage at RC=16 4 or 5 decks in a 6deck shoe ... you would be having a pretty decent DIS-Advantage.

    Good cards to you , and make sure you are playing with winning mathematics, for yourself and your future.
    Wow, thank you for that 5 star post! Thought provoking and I learned a lot, Still havent really gotten a chance to browse these forums(any thread recommendations?) but coming from the best poker forum I can tell I'm in good hands here. I'll be in and out of here for atleast the next year learning and then perfecting this craft as it will be like a minor as opposed to poker being my major/internship(way less variance and I can say that even with my elementary understanding of bj atm).

  9. #35


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    In addition to browsing this forum also go to the old blackjackinfo forum and browse the archived posts, there is a ton of valuable info there.

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