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Thread: Curious about different versions of the High-Low System

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    Curious about different versions of the High-Low System

    Hello to All:

    When I started my study of Blackjack, a few months ago, I decided to learn the High-Low System. Apparently there are some variations of the High-Low. For example, in the CV software, there is the High-Low, the Old Basic High-Low, and the Old Complete High-Low. I am wondering if there is much difference in the advantage offered between the variations?

    Thanks

    Night_Rider
    Last edited by Night_Rider; 07-27-2014 at 09:34 AM. Reason: Removed part of the post. Didn't make sense.
    You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them.

    M.S. Forbes

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    Each system has the same card point value yet they vary in the number of indexes used. Without having seen any CVCX results, the more indexes would add to the hourly rate but how much is the question. I personally use Old Basic High Lo and use the indexes for both DAS and NDAS because they slightly differ.

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    You know who would be a good person to ask on this one? We could ask the guy who's name is almost synonymous with using a dozen and a half index plays, but who personally uses a couple hundred.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KJ View Post
    You know who would be a good person to ask on this one? We could ask the guy who's name is almost synonymous with using a dozen and a half index plays, but who personally uses a couple hundred.
    LOL! You got my attention!

    The answer is fairly simple: there is only ONE Hi-Lo counting system. The fact that someone would choose to use more or fewer indices when employing that system isn't a function of the system; rather, it's a function of his/her preference for using indices!

    When Norm created the canned sims for CVCX, he often provided sims that used just the I18, or even the "Sweet 16" (omitting ten-splitting), and another with "Full indices," using all those that were published or provided by the author of the system in question. This permits the CVCX user to compare results from the "full" version to those using only the Sweet and Fab 4, and then allows him/her to decide whether learning all the extra indices is worth it.

    Don

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    Thanks everyone for the replies to my post. Don, I guess, in the back of my mind, I did know that the counting system and indices were different things. But, the books I have been reading more or less present the count system and indices together and I guess that left me thinking that they were one. Thank you for clarifying that for me and bringing it to the 'front' of my mind. From what I have read online the I18 is supposed to deliver 80% to 85% of the advantage of a full indice. Perhaps, Don, you can comment on the accuracy of this statement. That being the case I think I will stick to the I18 or Sweet 16. For me, at this point in my BJ career (lol), less is more. KISS - right?

    Thanks again....

    Night_Rider
    You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them.

    M.S. Forbes

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    If I use the Hi-Lo with six deck shoe games: h17, DAS, LS, 3:2 Payoff with around 80-85% pen, which index version between hi-low, old basic, and old complete is most appropriate?

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    The main impact will be in SCORE. That means how playable games are. For a quick answer we go to the tool bar above in the BJ resources using CVCX online (play-all) with your parameters. Since you didn't specify crowding I will use heads up with:
    Quote Originally Posted by AnzaExo View Post
    h17, DAS, LS, 3:2 Payoff with around 80-85% pen,
    Using 6 deck, 1-14 optimal spread, 13.5 ROR and 10K BR because you didn't specify:
    HILO I18 and Fab4: 80% pen C-SCORE 33.4 (EV $32.19/100 rounds), 85% pen C-SCORE 47.26 (EV $46.66/100 rounds)
    HILO full indices: 80% pen C-SCORE 37.94 (EV $37.35/100 rounds), 85% pen C-SCORE 54.40 (EV $53.04/100 rounds)

    As you probably know a SCORE of 50 is generally the line people use for what is playable. Well you need the extra pen to get close to playable and you need full indices push it over the line of what is playable. The EV says the extra indices are worth 13.59% for 80% pen and 13.67% for 85% pen.

    Now if you want to know what it is worth to you sim it with all the parameters you would play with including wonging style. Wonging style can have a huge impact on the answer to your question.

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    To answer the previous question, above, in your C-SCOREs, note that the I18, but with Fab 4, got 89% of the full indices e.v., with the poorer pen, and 87% with the better pen.

    Rather high percentages. Makes me feel good.

    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    To answer the previous question, above, in your C-SCOREs, note that the I18, but with Fab 4, got 89% of the full indices e.v., with the poorer pen, and 87% with the better pen.

    Rather high percentages. Makes me feel good.

    Don
    How many indices do you use Don?

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    Including surrender -- and I haven't counted them in a very long time -- I think it must be 140-150.

    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Including surrender -- and I haven't counted them in a very long time -- I think it must be 140-150.

    Don
    Just curious Don, how many of these 150, would you estimate are negative index plays at counts that the better option would be to not be playing?

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    KJ - I'm certainly not speaking for Don, but with DD, there's only so many times one can wong out. It's always entertaining hitting something like a 13 v 4, and winning.

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