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Thread: Do Dealers ever reach the end of the shoe or deck?

  1. #1


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    Do Dealers ever reach the end of the shoe or deck?

    Hello to All:

    I am wondering if a Dealer ever reaches the end of the Shoe/Deck? The reason I am asking is because when I am practicing counting (using software) I am going all the way to the end of the shoe. Of course when I get really close to the end of the shoe (within 1/2 deck) the count starts to go pretty high. Wong mentions this in his book. For example, yesterday, I had a -1 RC at the end of the shoe and the software was giving me a -10 TC. Because I am new to CC I know enough to know it will happen but have not learned how to handle it. Mathematically this quick rise in TC in relation to RC has to be due to the rapid rise in the ratio due to the shrinking size of the remaining cards/shoe/deck (if this is not correct please correct me - please).

    What I want to know is exactly how this is handled by others? I have been using 1/2 decks to calculate TC. Do I start using smaller fractions of decks to calculate TC once I reach a single 1/2 deck remaining? For example 1/4, 1/8 or 1/10 decks? And is this even a valid question? How often does a dealer reach the end of the shoe or deck? Do I need to worry about calculating TC down to the end if the dealer never gets there?

    Thanks

    Night_Rider
    You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them.

    M.S. Forbes

  2. #2


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    The dealer shouldn't reach the end of a shoe/deck, ever. It can sometimes be very close, which is why you'll see that wild fluctuation towards the end, but that has more to do with EoR and remaining cards. As an example, you can have TC4 very early into say a 6D shoe and your advantage will be as advertised. However, towards the end, say the last deck out of a 6D assuming super deep penetration, a TC4 will yield a higher player advantage. Conversely, if you're at a negative TC towards the very tail end of a shoe/deck your player disadvantage is much worse than if it were at the beginning.

    Whether you count using 1/2 decks, full decks, or even on a card by card basis, your TC should stay relatively similar, however, the more fractional the conversion, the more accurate the count, so keep that in mind.

    But again, as far as hitting the end of the deck/shoe, it should never happen.

  3. #3
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    It happens from time to time but it is very very rare. It has never happened to me. The closest I came was 6 cards left at the shuffle for an 8 deck shoe. The dealer change came during the shoe and the new dealer was a dual rate dealer (also works the pit as a suit). He made a point to count the cards since there were so few. I was heads up and the dealer was supposed to cut 1/2 of a deck off. I know several people that have had it happen more than once to. Needless to say if you have had it happen to you once the likelihood of it happening again becomes huge because you will be seeking a repeat.

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    It happened to me once in a double deck game that has extremely good pen. The cut card came out in the middle of a round and then the dealer forgot about it and dealt another round. He ended up getting the very last card as his hit card. They also deal double deck out of a shoe at that casino, otherwise I think the dealer would have noticed that he didn't have many cards left in his hand if he was pitching.

    I would say not to worry about how to calculate the true count with less than half a deck remaining (if your not playing single deck) because it's just very unlikely to happen.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Rider View Post
    Hello to All:

    I am wondering if a Dealer ever reaches the end of the Shoe/Deck? The reason I am asking is because when I am practicing counting (using software) I am going all the way to the end of the shoe. Of course when I get really close to the end of the shoe (within 1/2 deck) the count starts to go pretty high. Wong mentions this in his book. For example, yesterday, I had a -1 RC at the end of the shoe and the software was giving me a -10 TC. Because I am new to CC I know enough to know it will happen but have not learned how to handle it. Mathematically this quick rise in TC in relation to RC has to be due to the rapid rise in the ratio due to the shrinking size of the remaining cards/shoe/deck (if this is not correct please correct me - please).

    What I want to know is exactly how this is handled by others? I have been using 1/2 decks to calculate TC. Do I start using smaller fractions of decks to calculate TC once I reach a single 1/2 deck remaining? For example 1/4, 1/8 or 1/10 decks? And is this even a valid question? How often does a dealer reach the end of the shoe or deck? Do I need to worry about calculating TC down to the end if the dealer never gets there?

    Thanks

    Night_Rider
    Obviously, the more accurate you are with you TC the better off you will be. I use 1/4 deck estimations for my TC calculations. In addition to that, I use a round by round average for discards to do this calculation.

    Example: On average, each spot will receive 2.7 cards, so I playing HU 1 spot will result in 5.4 cards used in the 1st round, 10.8 cards used after the 2nd round, and by the end of the 3rd round, I will have broken the first quarter deck with roughly 16.2 cards used. So, playing SD HU 1 spot, on average after 3 rounds your TC divisor will be 0.75.

  6. #6
    Senior Member bigplayer's Avatar
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    Used to happen very often in single deck games, the dealer would just shuffle the cards in the discard rack and finish the round and then shuffle again with all cards. I've never had a dealer run out of cards on double deck or shoe games....they just don't cutoff enough cards for it to happen. With the writings and research of Bill Zender currently in vogue, however, penetration at those casinos that want to make more money is now vastly improved, so I guess the likelihood of them running out of cards should everyone split and resplit on the final round at the same time is a bit greater.

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    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigplayer View Post
    the dealer would just shuffle the cards in the discard rack and finish the round and then shuffle again with all cards.
    This is how CVData handles it. I've heard of casinos that don't bother with the second shuffle, but have never seen it. I seem to remember Stupak had a single-deck double-exposure game that dealt to the next to last card for a while.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    I had it happen once. Dealer forgot to put the cut card in.
    The Cash Cow.

  9. #9


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    bp

    Do you have some info (web links or something) showing Zender's view is catching on in given areas? I'd love to see that happen but, so far, I haven't seen it on the West Coast.

    Thanks!
    SiMi

  10. #10


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    There is that one single deck 6:5 game in Biloxi. Two tables 5-500 and 10-1000, S17, DAS, RSA3X, DOA, NLS, that's dealt 60's style all the way to the end, reshuffled, and continue dealing. This game is no big secret, it's been there for years.

  11. #11


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    Wish I could find games where that was a problem. You are going to be very fortunate to find games that offer penetration beyond a deck remaining on shoe games. I have played occasional DD games with penetration at about than 20-30 cards.

    However, your overall advantage increases the deeper the penetration. Do not believe you will have many occasions to calculate TC with 10 cards left!

    Keep asking questions and reading what is available .....you will get there.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  12. #12
    Senior Member yesiamred's Avatar
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    Have you not read previous posts? Of course, I have encountered this on dd, 4 and 6 deck shoes. One just has to know these locations with above, I mean above great pen and dealers.
    Red likes Redd's

  13. #13
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    I have never seen this happen in a six-deck game. With seven players, six-decks, basic strategy, this would occur in about .000015 shoes. With four players, never.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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