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Thread: Hi-lo/Ten count

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    Hi-lo/Ten count

    Hello everyone and thanks in advance. I've been a reader for some time here and on blackjackinfo and managed to pickup enough pointers to make some money at my local Seminole casinos.

    I'd like to address some duo team play action. Me and my spouse both use the hi-lo at the same table but, recently I've picked up the insurance ten count to improve are IC. Now what I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to also improve our PE by maybe adding some indices to the ten count and or a side count. The games down here in south Florida are pretty much 6 to 8 deck H17 no LS we do a good amount of wonging and spread 1-16.


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    Don't worry about PE in shoe games. Hi lo and ten count would be a very effective strategy though. Insurance is the best index play one can make, so having perfect insurance is a good strategy if you can do it.

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    You'd make vastly more money if you and your wife played at separate tables. You should also both be playing on separate players cards preferably each with their own separate unique address.

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    Thanks for quick reply. After a good amount of practice on CVBJ I found that my accuracy for the Ten Count is more accurate than my Hi-LO. Visually, with the full table drills I can easily cancel the cards out and add and subtract the rest of the cards.


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    Bigplayer, good point but I think that plan would be better suited for a Vegas trip for us. We are known for playing together she usually jumps in at TC 2 grabs my chips and acts as if she is new. I wouldn't want to ruin our camouflage that's getting no heat so far.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenKinG View Post
    Don't worry about PE in shoe games
    Why not. PE just gets you more money at no cost. Only a fool would not want a raise for doing the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenKinG View Post
    Insurance is the best index play one can make, so having perfect insurance is a good strategy if you can do it.
    IC is another category for playing decisions. The gain from all the other playing decisions is more than the gain from IC. Insurance is just the most profitable individual playing decision. What really frustrates me is the people that look at parts of their game individually rather than the game as a whole. An increase in PE may only be worth 5% in shoe games if you bet the same in both parts of the comparison but if you make optimal bets to the same BR and RoR your bets won't be the same for the lower PE and higher PE approach. The higher PE approach will gain from higher bets and increased PE.

    HILO I18 and Fab4, heads up S17, DAS, LS, 6 deck, 52 cut off, 13.7% RoR $100K BR:
    Spread 143 to 2288, EV $581.37/100 rounds, N0 17357

    HILO full indices, heads up, S17, DAS, LS, 6 deck, 52 cut off, 13.7% RoR, $100K BR:
    Spread 153 to 2448, EV $646.42/100 rounds, N0 15592

    That an 11.1% EV increase or the whole for using a higher PE with the same count not to mention an 11.1% decrease in N0 (11.3% increase in SCORE).

    Now if we adjust the RoR to make the same bets at full indices we made at I18 and Fab4 it looks like this at an 11.9% RoR:
    Spread 143 to 2288, EV $604.2/100 rounds, N0 15594.

    That is only a 3.9% EV increase but still gets the 11.1% decrease in N0 (11.3% increase in SCORE).

    So you see the person that doesn't look at the big picture only sees about a 1/3rd (35.1%) of the gain in EV that increasing PE can garner if they used the gain to the most advantage. Of course there is value to lowering RoR as the same 11.3% increase in SCORE from the lowering of your N0 indicates for either use of the increase in PE.

    Just a pet peeve I have for those who are not looking at the big picture to see the actual value of what you gain. I know I am not going to turn down an 11+% raise at my job because it is too small. Hell you invest and hold a penny stock and a 10% return on your investment is huge.
    Last edited by Three; 07-23-2014 at 07:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Why not. PE just gets you more money at no cost
    Absolutely, blackjack is a game of small edges, knocking bits off that edge here there and everywhere is senseless.

    The 'Hobbyists 18' lives on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Why not. PE just gets you more money at no cost. Only a fool would not want a raise for doing the same thing.


    IC is another category for playing decisions. The gain from all the other playing decisions is more than the gain from IC. Insurance is just the most profitable individual playing decision. What really frustrates me is the people that look at parts of their game individually rather than the game as a whole. An increase in PE may only be worth 5% in shoe games if you bet the same in both parts of the comparison but if you make optimal bets to the same BR and RoR your bets won't be the same for the lower PE and higher PE approach. The higher PE approach will gain from higher bets and increased PE.

    HILO I18 and Fab4, heads up S17, DAS, LS, 6 deck, 52 cut off, 13.7% RoR $100K BR:
    Spread 143 to 2288, EV $581.37/100 rounds, N0 17357

    HILO full indices, heads up, S17, DAS, LS, 6 deck, 52 cut off, 13.7% RoR, $100K BR:
    Spread 153 to 2448, EV $646.42/100 rounds, N0 15592

    That an 11.1% EV increase or the whole for using a higher PE with the same count not to mention an 11.1% decrease in N0 (11.3% increase in SCORE).

    Now if we adjust the RoR to make the same bets at full indices we made at I18 and Fab4 it looks like this at an 11.9% RoR:
    Spread 143 to 2288, EV $604.2/100 rounds, N0 15594.

    That is only a 3.9% EV increase but still gets the 11.1% decrease in N0 (11.3% increase in SCORE).

    So you see the person that doesn't look at the big picture only sees about a 1/3rd (35.1%) of the gain in EV that increasing PE can garner if they used the gain to the most advantage. Of course there is value to lowering RoR as the same 11.3% increase in SCORE from the lowering of your N0 indicates for either use of the increase in PE.

    Just a pet peeve I have for those who are not looking at the big picture to see the actual value of what you gain. I know I am not going to turn down an 11+% raise at my job because it is too small. Hell you invest and hold a penny stock and a 10% return on your investment is huge.
    143-2288? 153-2448? You will not be using these spreads in any casino; they are completely unrealistic. If a reasonable 150-2400 spread is employed Ill18 yields 635.28 and full indices gives 681.65, a difference of 46.36. It could take millions of hands to realize that difference in EV in real life.
    Last edited by mofungoo; 07-23-2014 at 10:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mofungoo View Post
    143-2288? 153-2448? You will not be using these spreads in any casino; they are completely unrealistic. If a reasonable 150-2400 spread is employed Ill18 yields 635.28 and full indices gives 681.65, a difference of 46.36. It could take millions of hands to realize that difference in EV in real life.
    You're happy to throw away $50 a session just so you dont have to learn some extra numbers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigplayer View Post
    You'd make vastly more money if you and your wife played at separate tables. You should also both be playing on separate players cards preferably each with their own separate unique address.
    Gotta get 'dem mailers!
    The Cash Cow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierce View Post
    You're happy to throw away $50 a session just so you dont have to learn some extra numbers?
    I use 40 index numbers so I would not be "throwing away" nearly that in an hour.

    I know all the numbers, but many are used so infrequently I would have to think a while to recall them. I would prefer to just play basic for those sorts of plays and move the game along, getting more hands per hour.
    Last edited by mofungoo; 07-23-2014 at 01:22 PM.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by mofungoo View Post
    I'd probably be "throwing away" more than that laying cover while making table max bets.
    Sooo.....learn the indices and recover at least part of lost earnings on cover?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mofungoo View Post
    I use 40 index numbers so I would not be "throwing away" nearly that in an hour.

    I know all the numbers, but many are used so infrequently I would have to think a while to recall them. I would prefer to just play basic for those sorts of plays and move the game along, getting more hands per hour.
    Thats fair enough, however my attitude towards it would be to work to make those numbers as second nature as your 16 and 15 v X indices.
    At best you can hope for a 2% advantage with pure counting, so it seems senseless to me to discount any EV no matter how small.

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